2024 Official Spring Training Thread

[Surgnbuck]

As we get ready for the Pirates to play ball, I got to thinking about the trades since BC has taken over. A where are they now thing. Not all trades, just guys that were good or expected to be. When I say good, it means they have not been reduced to hanger on journeymen guys, they've been part of major league rosters primarily, and not up and down AAA guys. I'll also include guys who we know were signed hoping they would revive their careers, and flip them at the deadline, guys that worked out fairly well for the Bucs.

Joe Musgrove (8.9 WAR with SD)- RHP-David Bednar (Pirates closer 6.0 WAR with Pirates), C-Endy Rodriguez (IL 40 man roster 0.2 WAR with Pirates), OF-Hudson Head (22-Greensboro), LHP-Omar Cruz (gone), RHP-Drake Fellows (25-Bradenton). If Rodriguez can come back from his injury and become a solid 2-3 WAR player, this trade, which is already starting to be forgotten about, will turn out to be a winner for the Pirates. But wow, Musgrove sure would look nice in the rotation.

Starling Marte (1.1 WAR with AZ; 9.3 WAR total AZ, MIA, OAK, NYM)-RHP-Brennan Malone (23-Indy), SS-Liover Peguero (-0.4 WAR with Pirates), $250,000 international signing bonus pool. Part of the 20-21 international draft class includes 4 players in the Pirates top 50 prospects. This trade has yet, and may never make it more than a salary dump.

Josh Bell (6.5 WAR with Wash, 6.5 WAR total Wash, SD, Clev, Mia)- RHP Wil Crowe (0.2 WAR with Pirates, released, pitching in KBO league, gave up Aaron Judge's 60th HR), RHP Eddy Yean (22-Greensboro). This trade is an absolute disaster, as Yean was the prize return, and can't get above high A.

Jameson Taillon (3.6 WAR with NYY)- RHP Miguel Yajure (-1.4 WAR with Pirates, released, in NPB, first player in MLB history to wear number 89, the last number to never have been worn in MLB), RHP Roansy Contreras (1.0 WAR with Pirates on their 40 man roster), OF Canaan Smith-Njigba (-0.2 WAR with Pirates, waived, claimed back off waivers on 40 man roster), SS Maikol Escotto (21-Greensboro, 38th ranked prospect). This is a low bar to climb over if Contreras can return to form. However, it was Yajure that was the prime return. So far, underwhelming at the very least.

Adam Frazier and 1.4 million (1.0 WAR with SD, 3.4 WAR total SD, Sea, Balt)- IF/OF Tucupita Marcano (-0.9 WAR with Pirates, released, claimed by SD) , OF Jack Suwinski (3.4 WAR with Pirates and starting CF), RHP Michell Miliano (declared free agency). So far a very solid trade for the Pirates as Suwinski alone makes this trade a good one, though Marcano was the centerpiece. Needless to say, the Padres may be wary when Ben approaches in the future.

Clay Holmes (4.4 WAR with NYY, now their closer with 44 saves)- IF Diego Castillo (0.2 WAR with Pirates; traded to AZ for RHP Scott Randall 25-Indy), IF Hoy Park (-0.5 WAR with Pirates; traded to Boston for LHP Inmer Lobo-20 DSL). This was mostly a case of swapping potential for potential, and the Yankees clearly won this trade, as Holmes is a legit all star level relief pitcher.

Robert Stephenson (1.2 WAR with TBR; signed 3/33 FA contract with Angels)- SS Alika Williams (-0.2 WAR with Pirates, on 40 man roster) A confusing trade, as Stephenson never amounted to much with the Reds or the Rockies, made improvement with the Pirates, and became all star level with Tampa Bay, and parlayed his time there into a rich contract with the Angels. The Rays didn't give up much, though fixing a guy and letting him go for nothing is just as bad as the Pirates trading him for organizational filler. Two relief pitchers that makes you wonder had we fixed them, what kind of bullpen would we be looking at now with RS and Holmes? Pirates took a beat down on this trade.

Daniel Vogelbach (1.1 WAR with NYM; on minor league deal with Toronto)- RHP Colin Holderman (0.5 WAR with Pirates on 40 man roster) Holderman was a much more productive player for the Pirates in 2023 than Vogelbach was for the Mets. DV was 0.9 WAR with the Mets in less than half a season to Holderman's -0.2 WAR the trade year, but Holderman far outperformed him last season. Holderman is in the majors, Vogelbach is not. Holderman has become a solid bullpen piece. GMBC finally wins a relief pitcher trade.

Rich Hill (-1.1 with SD; currently a FA) and Ji Man Choi (-0.4 WAR with SD; signed minor league contract with NYM)- LHP Jackson Wolf (Pirates 40 man roster), OF Estuar Suero (18 FCL), 1B Alfonso Rivas (0.3 WAR with Pirates; claimed off waivers by Clev; DFA by Clev; claim by LAA; dfa by LAA; claimed by StL on their 40 man roster). This was a trade that the Pirates won more by subtraction than addition. If Suero or Wolf contribute anything, it's a disaster for SD. The only thing that could have made it better is if the Pirates had been able to trade Rivas, who was able to land on a 40 man roster.

Jose Quintana (1.6 WAR with StL; signed 2/26 FA deal with NYM, 3.2 total with StL and NYM) and Chris Stratton (0.4 WAR with StL, 0.8 total with StL and Tex; signed 1 year FA deal with KC)- RHP Johan Oviedo (2.8 WAR with Pirates, out for 2024 with TJ surgery), OF Malcom Nunez (22 Indy, Pirates #22 prospect). If Oviedo returns to form in 2025, this was an absolute fleecing of the Cardinals, who have nothing to show for this deal, though Stratton was part of the Montgomery package to Texas. Yinzers wait patiently (?) to see if Nunez is the savior at first base.

Jacob Stallings (-1.3 WAR with Miami; signed 1/2 FA deal with Rockies)- RHP Zach Thompson (-0.2 WAR with Pirates; traded to Tor for Chavez Young who elected FA in November. Thompson was DFA by Tor, and elected FA in November as well), RHP Kyle Nicolas (-0.3 WAR with Pirates, on Pirates 40 man roster), OF Connor Scott (24-Altoona). A nothing for nothing trade it turns out, though there's still hope for the Pirates with Nicolas to win this trade. Stallings was traded after a career year, and it's a shame they didn't get more because they got rid of him at just the right time.

Tyler Anderson (0.3 WAR with Sea; 4.8 WAR total with Sea, LAD, LAA. Signed a 1/8 deal with LAD; signed a 3/39 deal with LAA.) - C Carter Bins (25-Altoona), RHP Joaquin Tejada (20-DSL) If they only knew what he would become, they could have kept him. Bins has been injury plagued, and highly regarded as a defensive catcher, and is a non-roster invite to Pirates ST. The Pirates lost this deal, simply because they signed Anderson with the intent of flipping him if he did well, and they haven't shown anything so far in return.

Carlos Santana (1.1 WAR with Milwaukee, signed 1/5.25 with Min)- SS Jhonny Severino (18 DSL). Hard to say with this one, Brewers gave the kid a ton of money to trade him this fast. Hard to imagine the Pirates couldn't have gotten a MLB player in this trade.


So what's your take? I know there have been other trades, but these are the ones that standout simply because they were deadline deals, or offseason deals that were supposed to build the organization.

[Bobster]

It's hard to gauge trades. Of all the players acquired in the deals you discussed, only Bednar has achieved star status and only Holderman and Suwinski have established themselves as useful Pirate this season. Olviedo is out but it's too soon to know if he will be a future asset, although the indications last year were good. The players the Pirates gave up in those deals were all established, productive major leaguers with the exception of Holmes, who hadn't pitched well enough to be confident of avoiding another trip to AAA. But that's the nature of MLB trades today. The days of trading talent for talent are long gone, at least for the Pirates and other small market teams.

The Pirates trade talent for potential. Free agency limits the length of time the Pirates have with productive players. And payroll considerations prevent the Pirates from trading for productive veterans with high salaries. So they trade players for prospects before losing them to free agency and getting nothing in return. They also sign older, declining free agents and deal them for prospects at the trade deadline. Teams trading to acquire those Pirates also have the pending free agency of those players to deal with and won't give up top prospects for them. So the Pirates have to identify potentially good prospects who haven't sufficiently developed yet to the point where their team has made them untouchable. Oneil Cruz might turn out to be a star but he was 18, in single-A and hitting for a low average when acquired. Suwinski was in his first season at AA. Bednar had 1 season at AA and a cup 'o coffee with the Padres. Holderman had only been in 15 MLB games. Peguero was 21 and in his first year of single-A when obtained.

Cherington and his scouts have to assess a young player's tools, usually at a lower level, and project the chances of success at the MLB level. And a lot can happen along the way since the players acquired are usually several years away. And since the Pirates being traded are generally productive major leaguers, the odds are probably better that the Pirates will not get the better of the deal most of the time. I'm not Cherington's biggest fan but I know he has a very difficult task when trying to trade his productive players for the best prospects another team is actually willing to part with. And by the time those prospects can become valuable members of the Pirates, the players the Pirates gave up are often no longer with the team that acquired them. So I think it's hard to determine winners and losers in these types of deals. Mostly, we can only wait and see how the players acquired turn out several years later.

[Doc]

Good analysis, Surge. The adage that “one has to trade someone good to get someone good in return” holds true with the Musgrove trade. Both teams benefited. The trades involving Belle and Tallion were mostly about dumping salary while trading guys who didn’t meet their promise (for one reason or another) and so didn’t bring much back in return.

I feel Marte and Frazier may have been able to bring back major league-ready players but I think BC was seeking quantity youngsters rather than quality which, to me, is a mistake. It looks like getting Suwinski turned out to be lucky as he wasn’t the key player in that deal.

The other trades were mostly BC dumping salary, or simply ridding the organization of young players who he felt would never contribute, in exchange for prospects who other teams had little interest in keeping. Little ever comes from trades like that regardless of the organizations involved.

I think with 30 teams it’s much harder today for any GM to make multiple winning trades, more so than back when there were fewer teams. Add to that situation the way players are paid in the first three years and then the arbitration years and then free agency, GMs have far more things to consider and weigh than their counterparts from the past. And then there’s the much larger differences in market sizes that gums up opportunities. It seems far more difficult to make a successful trade now.

[Babe Adams]

I'm sure everyone realizes this, but WAR isn't the full measure. Quintana started Game 1 in the Cards playoff series that year - that's pretty serious leverage that has to be considered in some way.

[fjk090852-7]

Spring Training games have begun, and the Pirates haven’t brought in another starting pitcher. I am sure any trade with the Marlins is not going to happen. There are a few free agent pitchers still available, but there isn’t even a small rumor that the Pirates have an interest in any of them. Just a guess,but the Pirates will probably see if Roansy can fill in the #4 position, and a combination of Falter, Fleming and Ortiz will be slotted into the #5 position in the rotation. I hope the brain trust is spot on , if they are leaning towards this option.

[3pirates3]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/395 ... llion-deal

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1 ... 8857180554

[Doc]

My one-man crusade ends. As 3P reports in the previous post, Cody Bellinger has reached a deal with the Cubs for $80 million over three years, an affordable number for the Pirates. Maybe Bellinger told the Pirates upfront that under no condition would he sign with them. Maybe Boras told the Pirates it would take $35 million per year at minimum for his client to even consider coming here. But if the club had the same chance as any other team, and made little to no effort, then this organization is in a much worse position than I imagined.

[Wildwoodcoach]

Didn't want to start a new thread but this is for doc
It's official- Cody Bellinger signs with the Cubs 3years 80 Million- sorry doc

[Possum]

Didn't want to start a new thread but this is for doc
It's official- Cody Bellinger signs with the Cubs 3years 80 Million- sorry doc

The deal includes opt-outs following the 2024 and 2025 seasons. Passan adds that the deal is slightly frontloaded, with Bellinger making $30MM in 2024 and 2025 with a $20MM salary in 2026.

[Surgnbuck]

My one-man crusade ends. As 3P reports in the previous post, Cody Bellinger has reached a deal with the Cubs for $80 million over three years, an affordable number for the Pirates. Maybe Bellinger told the Pirates upfront that under no condition would he sign with them. Maybe Boras told the Pirates it would take $35 million per year at minimum for his client to even consider coming here. But if the club had the same chance as any other team, and made little to no effort, then this organization is in a much worse position than I imagined.

Looks more like a supercharged one year deal to me. You can still hold out hope for next season, he has an opt out after both the first two years.