Off Season Roster Discussion

[Wildwoodcoach]

Yes, Davis can only do what he can do. His resume of being #1 draft pick doesn't help him play ball any better. He has to be used to the best of his ability, whatever that may be. The problem is that the Pirates count on building from within and treasure the opportunity to add #1 overall talent. So if they whiff on the pick and end up with a utility player instead of a franchise player, it's disastrous to the organization's building plan.

No argument from me. It’s hard to over estimate the value of that high of a pick. But once the pick is made, as you mentioned, his draft position means nothing. The list of first round picks who never worked out is long. And there are lots and lots of guys chosen in the second half of the draft who became outstanding players. It’s that proverbial crap shoot.

Here's the list if Pirates' 1st rd picks. The jury's still out on the more recent ones. But in the past 10 years only Hayes has been a difference maker.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/draf ... anch_round

I looked at the list(thanks for providing it). There were quite a few busts. To me, the worst one was Tony Sanchez. Any other opinions?

[fjk090852-7]

No argument from me. It’s hard to over estimate the value of that high of a pick. But once the pick is made, as you mentioned, his draft position means nothing. The list of first round picks who never worked out is long. And there are lots and lots of guys chosen in the second half of the draft who became outstanding players. It’s that proverbial crap shoot.

Here's the list if Pirates' 1st rd picks. The jury's still out on the more recent ones. But in the past 10 years only Hayes has been a difference maker.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/draf ... anch_round

I looked at the list(thanks for providing it). There were quite a few busts. To me, the worst one was Tony Sanchez. Any other opinions?

You can include Will Craig and Swaggerty as busts.

[Javy]

Daniel Moskos infuriated everyone - soley a financial move. Cole Tucker was useless.
Mark Appel was a wasted pick

[Surgnbuck]

I know every team doesn't hit a HR with their first round picks. But the problem for me, and I'm guessing a lot of Bucs fans, is how high they have been able to draft over the last 40 plus years, and not showing much for it. First, let's look at the guys they drafted as the number 1 overall:
1986-Jeff King
1996- Kris Benson
2002- Bryan Bullington
2011- Gerritt Cole
2021- Henry Davis
2023- Paul Skenes

King was an okay player. The 1986 draft as a whole is pretty weak. Not a single HOF player from that draft (Sheffield is in the running still). Only five guys drafted in the first round that season made an all star game.

Benson and Bullington, as number one overalls, at the very least should have anchored a solid rotation, even if they were 4-5. Looking at Davis and Skenes, the Bucs HAVE to get solid production from both, as teammates on the Pirates for at least 4-6 years. Has to happen, or it's a complete waste of the top spot.

The Pirates have also had the second pick a few times:
1987: Mark Merchant
2008- Pedro Alvarez
2010- Jameson Taillon
With Cole number one overall in 2011, the combination of Alvarez, Taillon, and Cole should have represented a very solid core for a team that looked like it was about to start reminding us of the 70's teams. Only in 2013 did two of them put it together with Alvarez and Cole. Taillon had the cancer. Just like back when the Pirates had a number one overall and a number two overall, the pick of Merchant was one of apparent bad luck. He was the obvious choice at number two behind Ken Griffey Jr., and had a solid first season in pro ball. He separated his shoulder the next season, the Pirates traded him after that second season, and he never made the majors, having broken an ankle, and never getting past AA.

The Pirates have drafted in the top ten 25 times since since 1979, have had a second first round pick in:
2022 (36th), 2020 (31st), 2019 (37th), 2018 (36th), 2016 (41st), 2015 (32nd), 2014 (39th), 2013 (9th-their actual 1st rounder was 14th!), 2012 (45th), 2009 (49th).

Even more disturbing is that looking at who is still in MLB, the list doesn't go back very far, with the exception of McCutchen. The next five guys drafted number one after him have long been out of baseball. Then you have Taillon and Cole. The furthest back the Pirates go with any draft picks playing MLB after those three is Connor Joe, who was traded away and came back on a trade. Ke'Bryan Hayes is the senior Pirate as far as continuous service in the organization right now, drafted in 2015.

The Pirates have since 1979, with all of those high draft pick positions, drafted only Barry Bonds and Gerritt Cole as HOF caliber players, Jason Kendall and Andrew McCutchen as borderline HOF caliber players, and besides that group no one who made more than 2 All Star games.

I'd also like to add the remarkable number of pitchers drafted with the first pick that made MLB primarily as relief pitchers.

Let's face it, this team has been complete crap when it comes drafting in the first round since the inception of the draft. Richie Hebner, Barry Bonds, Jason Kendall, Andrew McCutchen, and Gerritt Cole are the only players to post a career WAR of 20 or better. Ke'Bryan Hayes sits at 12.5, Jameson Taillon at 11.5 still playing and over 10 career WAR. Neil Walker (19.6), Jeff King (16.9), Craig Reynolds (13.1), Kris Benson (12.8), and Paul Maholm (11.9) are the only other players the Pirates drafted in the first round/first round comp picks with career WAR over 10. They have 9 draftees that have posted a career NEGATIVE WAR, and three current players in that position.

They drafted 23 guys that never signed or made the majors, though two are still playing-Sammi Siani, still with the Pirates, and Gunnar Henderson, in the A's organization.

Paul Skenes, Termarr Johnson, and Tom Harrington have yet to make MLB debuts. All three are ST invites this year.

[Wildwoodcoach]

Very good Surg- Did you do this all in one sitting? my fingers would have gotten tired

[Surgnbuck]

Very good Surg- Did you do this all in one sitting? my fingers would have gotten tired

Took me awhile. I was intrigued by the link Bobster posted, and I kind of went down the rabbit hole. It really irks me how horrible they have been since the comp picks started, that they get a shot at 2 of the top 35-45 picks for the most part, and squandered them mightily. Even worse, is the number one picks were usually "signable" types so they could go after a difficult signing with the comp pick!

It also surprised me how weak they have drafted in the first round throughout their history. It's obvious how important their signing of so many Latin players were the main fuel driving the 70's teams, along with some very astute trades.

Back in the day when there were what, 40 rounds, a lot of talent still sat out there, now those guys are FA's. I'd really love to know what percentage of each teams draft choices that they signed, actually made the majors in their history. I'd also like to know each teams breakdown on draft position also.

[3pirates3]

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1 ... 1554894939

https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/17 ... 1526401301

[Surgnbuck]

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1 ... 1554894939

https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/17 ... 1526401301

I can only imagine what he might be thinking if he signs in Pittsburgh, and the "Cueto" chants start.

[JollyRoger8]

I agree it would have been a bad pick at #1 but where he’s been drafted is no longer of a concern. If he can hit for a high enough average with power, and actually save us runs by not playing in RF, then that’s all that matters. We can’t force him to be more than he is. If he can be a decent enough catcher I’d rather he play there and have a legit outfielder playing right.

Yes, Davis can only do what he can do. His resume of being #1 draft pick doesn't help him play ball any better. He has to be used to the best of his ability, whatever that may be. The problem is that the Pirates count on building from within and treasure the opportunity to add #1 overall talent. So if they whiff on the pick and end up with a utility player instead of a franchise player, it's disastrous to the organization's building plan.

No argument from me. It’s hard to over estimate the value of that high of a pick. But once the pick is made, as you mentioned, his draft position means nothing. The list of first round picks who never worked out is long. And there are lots and lots of guys chosen in the second half of the draft who became outstanding players. It’s that proverbial crap shoot.

Keep in mind that drafting Davis #1 and paying him under slot money allowed the Pirates to draft and sign Solometo, Chandler, White and Bishop. The 2021 draft may pan out to be the best the Pirates have had

[Wildwoodcoach]

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1 ... 1554894939

https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/17 ... 1526401301

I can only imagine what he might be thinking if he signs in Pittsburgh, and the "Cueto" chants start.

Now that I would like to see