5A5F585E565C455851424449300 wrote: All I can do is point out that our payroll was in the $100M range during the few playoff years. I think BN will be willing to go there again if he is confident we have that kind of talent again.
Agree, and I'll go so far as adjusted for increase/decrease in external revenue.
But, there is a difference between "wild card rounds and "winning the World Series. The payrolls of the most recent 35 World Champion teams have ranked far above the Pirates much more often than not. I'm not counting on that to change.
The row won't get any easier to hoe, but it shouldn't be easy, anyway.
Off Season
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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johnfluharty
Off Season
I always look at Tampa Bay to gauge what we might be able to accomplish in Pittsburgh. With one of the lowest payrolls in baseball every single year, they have still managed to make the playoffs 7 of the last 14 seasons (including this season). Can we do this? Can we improve on it a little? Time will tell.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season
424740464E445D40495A5C51280 wrote: I always look at Tampa Bay to gauge what we might be able to accomplish in Pittsburgh. With one of the lowest payrolls in baseball every single year, they have still managed to make the playoffs 7 of the last 14 seasons (including this season). Can we do this? Can we improve on it a little? Time will tell.
One way the Rays have done well is that they geared their rosters to match well against the Yankees and Red Sox, the two better teams in the division over the recent years. Will it hold true now that the Blue Jays are emerging and the Orioles develop?
A second way is that they've benefitted by rather one-sided trades, as we know all too well.
First, the Pirates need to get guys that teams like the Rays would want, then fleece the living excrement out of them like they've done to us and other teams.
That might get us to second place.
One way the Rays have done well is that they geared their rosters to match well against the Yankees and Red Sox, the two better teams in the division over the recent years. Will it hold true now that the Blue Jays are emerging and the Orioles develop?
A second way is that they've benefitted by rather one-sided trades, as we know all too well.
First, the Pirates need to get guys that teams like the Rays would want, then fleece the living excrement out of them like they've done to us and other teams.
That might get us to second place.
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johnfluharty
Off Season
142136363D0436363D3A36530 wrote: I always look at Tampa Bay to gauge what we might be able to accomplish in Pittsburgh. With one of the lowest payrolls in baseball every single year, they have still managed to make the playoffs 7 of the last 14 seasons (including this season). Can we do this? Can we improve on it a little? Time will tell.
One way the Rays have done well is that they geared their rosters to match well against the Yankees and Red Sox, the two better teams in the division over the recent years. Will it hold true now that the Blue Jays are emerging and the Orioles develop?
A second way is that they've benefitted by rather one-sided trades, as we know all too well.
First, the Pirates need to get guys that teams like the Rays would want, then fleece the living excrement out of them like they've done to us and other teams.
That might get us to second place.
Can you expand on this some or point me to an article that talks about it? I didn't realize they did this, and find it very interesting. If I had to pick someone like this for us, one team would be the Cardinals, who seem to be really goods year in and out.
One way the Rays have done well is that they geared their rosters to match well against the Yankees and Red Sox, the two better teams in the division over the recent years. Will it hold true now that the Blue Jays are emerging and the Orioles develop?
A second way is that they've benefitted by rather one-sided trades, as we know all too well.
First, the Pirates need to get guys that teams like the Rays would want, then fleece the living excrement out of them like they've done to us and other teams.
That might get us to second place.
Can you expand on this some or point me to an article that talks about it? I didn't realize they did this, and find it very interesting. If I had to pick someone like this for us, one team would be the Cardinals, who seem to be really goods year in and out.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season
There could be an article that discusses it,but someone would need to look for one. I listen to MLBNR quite a bit and I remember this being brought up several years ago when folks all over were amazed at how the Rays were able to do so well vs. the Yankees and Red Sox (because of the obvious payroll disparities among two of the three teams.
The hosts, some who are former GMs, said that it's not about pay. It's about how the teams match against each other.
They used the example at that time that the Yankees didn't hit well vs. left-handed pitching. If the opponent has left-handed pitching it doesn't matter what the third baseman gets paid. Or, anyone else.
That's almost verbatim. It stuck with me.
Match ups.
The money goes to more experienced players. So, if the Rays had young left-handed pitchers at the time, they were able to do well against the teams that they play the most with a lower payroll.
The hosts, some who are former GMs, said that it's not about pay. It's about how the teams match against each other.
They used the example at that time that the Yankees didn't hit well vs. left-handed pitching. If the opponent has left-handed pitching it doesn't matter what the third baseman gets paid. Or, anyone else.
That's almost verbatim. It stuck with me.
Match ups.
The money goes to more experienced players. So, if the Rays had young left-handed pitchers at the time, they were able to do well against the teams that they play the most with a lower payroll.
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johnfluharty
Off Season
497C6B6B60596B6B60676B0E0 wrote: There could be an article that discusses it,but someone would need to look for one. I listen to MLBNR quite a bit and I remember this being brought up several years ago when folks all over were amazed at how the Rays were able to do so well vs. the Yankees and Red Sox (because of the obvious payroll disparities among two of the three teams.
The hosts, some who are former GMs, said that it's not about pay. It's about how the teams match against each other.
They used the example at that time that the Yankees didn't hit well vs. left-handed pitching. If the opponent has left-handed pitching it doesn't matter what the third baseman gets paid. Or, anyone else.
That's almost verbatim. It stuck with me.
Match ups.
The money goes to more experienced players. So, if the Rays had young left-handed pitchers at the time, they were able to do well against the teams that they play the most with a lower payroll.
Very interesting information, thanks.
The hosts, some who are former GMs, said that it's not about pay. It's about how the teams match against each other.
They used the example at that time that the Yankees didn't hit well vs. left-handed pitching. If the opponent has left-handed pitching it doesn't matter what the third baseman gets paid. Or, anyone else.
That's almost verbatim. It stuck with me.
Match ups.
The money goes to more experienced players. So, if the Rays had young left-handed pitchers at the time, they were able to do well against the teams that they play the most with a lower payroll.
Very interesting information, thanks.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season
One more point they've made, and I mentioned it earlier. The Rays' GM is a known thief. Maybe the guy before him, too. Much to our chagrin, a certain local GM must've been unaware. He wasn't alone.
If you trade a guy and are lucky/good enough to get two good suspects in return.....AND, your fanbase and owner is in no hurry to climb the standings, you can do well in time. The Rays fanbase.....not sure.
But, it's tough to win in a hurry that way until the assembly line gets moving.
If you trade a guy and are lucky/good enough to get two good suspects in return.....AND, your fanbase and owner is in no hurry to climb the standings, you can do well in time. The Rays fanbase.....not sure.
But, it's tough to win in a hurry that way until the assembly line gets moving.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season
Those continuing to wait for prices to drop will need to be even more patient. 
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Off Season
the most important thing this offseason is the CBA. Pirates wont do anything until that is done.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Off Season
4D6C644D666E090 wrote: The comment about drafting, developing, trading etc is the way to improve a last place team, is spot on. That is what Ben Cherington and his group are doing, and I have said it more than once [highlight]he would not have come to Pittsburgh if he did not receive assurances that when the time comes he will add pieces for the organization to contend for the postseason.[/highlight]
I wouldn't be surprised that BC received those assurances. I also wouldn't be surprised if Nutting didn't carry through with them. Is there anything that you've seen from Nutting since he gained control of the franchise that would suggest he would honor his promise? Me neither.
You are so right about the way that Bob Nutting has run this franchise. Notwithstanding, I either read, or heard that after the 2019 season the Nutting family, possibly Mr. Nutting , was not pleased how the media and fans were writing and talking negatively towards the family. I may be in the minority, but I think the current management group including Travis Williams, as well as BC group have been given the directive to right the organization. I might be wrong, but I am going to continue to remain positive with the current Management Group.
Agreed. I’ll go further - the current management team is doing an excellent job establishing a foundation to build a team. It or may not be successful, but they are working a plan which is not only realistic but the ONLY realistic plan that has a chance to succeed.
And count me as one that has grown weary of the same posts over and over by a few. I’ve been off the board for two-three weeks as a result.
Go kick your cans down some other lane. Sheeze.
Oh, and I can’t wait to see what this self appointed expert panel is going to bring to the rest of our lives. Oh boy.
Maybe the mods can assign numbers 1, 2 and 3 to those posters who say the same three things over in every thread.
Sorry for my surly attitude. But most of this isn’t baseball talk, it’s a private bi!ch session carried out in public.
(To be clean, I am not referring to Utah’s venting; he was actually offering ways forward).
We are all entitled to our own opinions. We all want the Bucs to succeed and have different opinions as to how it should be done. That is what makes any board interesting. I did take exception to one comment you made when you mentioned "self appointed experts". Believe me, I am no expert. Also, we were all given the opportunity to be on the panel. I thought it would be fun and said yes. As I mentioned before, I just graded the signing from 0-5 on what I felt the player deserved. Something to do during the Winter months. If more than one member disagreed with Shedman's grade, he made an "adjustment".
Last year was the first year we did the off season thread on OBN. It was a carryover from the PMB board when that board folded and some of their posters joined OBN. It’s a way to have something to talk about in the offseason as it relates to all MLB moves. And I don’t think many, if any, are too concerned about the actual ”grades” accorded those moves.
As Pirates fans we are all too familiar with their off season habits. Or lack thereof. No relevant free agents, few significant trades. Whether we like it or not, that’s not how BC is trying to repair this broken franchise. Nor could it be with Nutting’s refusal to spend. BC seems to be drafting better than his predecessor and the talent at AA and A is encouraging. It seems fair to evaluate BC for what he is actually doing and criticize or praise based on that. It seems pointless to constantly whine about not embarking on a different course preferred by fans but not feasible with no financial support from the owner.
What was annoying about the off season thread last year was that with every move at the MLB level other GMs made, we saw the obligatory “BC is doing nothing, BC is kicking the can, BC should be fired” stuff. It’s fair to criticize the poor MLB roster BC gave us this year. But it’s also fair to keep in mind that was not the course he embarked on. BC will ultimately be judged on how well his plan works to rebuild this team, good or bad. Not on how poorly the MLB roster did in 2021 while the system was being replenished. Some of us at OBN were past members of PMB. When I was there many moons ago there was an “anything goes” attitude. There seemed to be few standards for posting or if there were, they weren’t enforced. Some posters seemed more interested in “stirring the pot” or getting under everyone’s skin than in discussing the Pirates. We don’t want that at OBN. So keep the off season thread for discussing off season moves throughout MLB. Not for a daily gripe session about a course of action the Pirates are not taking. It should be a fun thread and not an annoyance based on the behavior of one or two posters.
For those who are the few that Bobster is talking about, be aware that we will not stand for the annoyance you create.
Does that mean this thread will be free of the repetitive, uninteresting, comments about the owner and things that happened in the past?
I wouldn't be surprised that BC received those assurances. I also wouldn't be surprised if Nutting didn't carry through with them. Is there anything that you've seen from Nutting since he gained control of the franchise that would suggest he would honor his promise? Me neither.
You are so right about the way that Bob Nutting has run this franchise. Notwithstanding, I either read, or heard that after the 2019 season the Nutting family, possibly Mr. Nutting , was not pleased how the media and fans were writing and talking negatively towards the family. I may be in the minority, but I think the current management group including Travis Williams, as well as BC group have been given the directive to right the organization. I might be wrong, but I am going to continue to remain positive with the current Management Group.
Agreed. I’ll go further - the current management team is doing an excellent job establishing a foundation to build a team. It or may not be successful, but they are working a plan which is not only realistic but the ONLY realistic plan that has a chance to succeed.
And count me as one that has grown weary of the same posts over and over by a few. I’ve been off the board for two-three weeks as a result.
Go kick your cans down some other lane. Sheeze.
Oh, and I can’t wait to see what this self appointed expert panel is going to bring to the rest of our lives. Oh boy.
Maybe the mods can assign numbers 1, 2 and 3 to those posters who say the same three things over in every thread.
Sorry for my surly attitude. But most of this isn’t baseball talk, it’s a private bi!ch session carried out in public.
(To be clean, I am not referring to Utah’s venting; he was actually offering ways forward).
We are all entitled to our own opinions. We all want the Bucs to succeed and have different opinions as to how it should be done. That is what makes any board interesting. I did take exception to one comment you made when you mentioned "self appointed experts". Believe me, I am no expert. Also, we were all given the opportunity to be on the panel. I thought it would be fun and said yes. As I mentioned before, I just graded the signing from 0-5 on what I felt the player deserved. Something to do during the Winter months. If more than one member disagreed with Shedman's grade, he made an "adjustment".
Last year was the first year we did the off season thread on OBN. It was a carryover from the PMB board when that board folded and some of their posters joined OBN. It’s a way to have something to talk about in the offseason as it relates to all MLB moves. And I don’t think many, if any, are too concerned about the actual ”grades” accorded those moves.
As Pirates fans we are all too familiar with their off season habits. Or lack thereof. No relevant free agents, few significant trades. Whether we like it or not, that’s not how BC is trying to repair this broken franchise. Nor could it be with Nutting’s refusal to spend. BC seems to be drafting better than his predecessor and the talent at AA and A is encouraging. It seems fair to evaluate BC for what he is actually doing and criticize or praise based on that. It seems pointless to constantly whine about not embarking on a different course preferred by fans but not feasible with no financial support from the owner.
What was annoying about the off season thread last year was that with every move at the MLB level other GMs made, we saw the obligatory “BC is doing nothing, BC is kicking the can, BC should be fired” stuff. It’s fair to criticize the poor MLB roster BC gave us this year. But it’s also fair to keep in mind that was not the course he embarked on. BC will ultimately be judged on how well his plan works to rebuild this team, good or bad. Not on how poorly the MLB roster did in 2021 while the system was being replenished. Some of us at OBN were past members of PMB. When I was there many moons ago there was an “anything goes” attitude. There seemed to be few standards for posting or if there were, they weren’t enforced. Some posters seemed more interested in “stirring the pot” or getting under everyone’s skin than in discussing the Pirates. We don’t want that at OBN. So keep the off season thread for discussing off season moves throughout MLB. Not for a daily gripe session about a course of action the Pirates are not taking. It should be a fun thread and not an annoyance based on the behavior of one or two posters.
For those who are the few that Bobster is talking about, be aware that we will not stand for the annoyance you create.
Does that mean this thread will be free of the repetitive, uninteresting, comments about the owner and things that happened in the past?