11362723263B04302726263B420 wrote: Should both be in the starting lineup and in the starting rotation come April next season. The Pirates really have nobody better right now on both the pitching staff and position player wise to justify not doing so. Let them start the season with the big club and roll with it . Having both of them on the roster will make them a much better team to start 2022.
As far as Cruz is concerned, a lot depends what they decide to do with Newman
Cruz and Contreras…
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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WildwoodDave2
Cruz and Contreras…
643224303F25353E332416313B373F3A7835560 wrote: Freddy, you’re going to get your wish but a couple months later than you are hoping for.
For me, Contreras looked much more polished than Cruz. But three innings of high 90s is very different than 6 innings. He deserves some AAA starts to work on the million things he needs to perfect.
Cruz is raw. I could feel that he was going to hit a HR during his two games of opportunity just like I can feel he’s going to hit many many HRs as a pirate. But at the plate I also saw him totally overwhelmed on a few pitches. He will probably spend most of next season in AAA.
But we got a taste of what’s ahead. By this time next year we will be talking about what pieces need to be added to complete the 2023 team - who are the prospects that will be ready, what FAs need to be added.
I’m hoping by the end of the season guys like Cruz, Nick Gonzales, Puguero, and Mason Martin just to name a few and there are other guys as well but either all are up here or being talked about being in the 2023 starting lineup on opening day. Something is seriously wrong if we are not. Also, hopefully Contreras and Priester just to name a few of the young pitching prospects are being talked about being in the starting rotation to start 2023. Like you talked about as well VA [highlight]they have to go out and sign some free agents[/highlight] as well and spend some damn money to add to help these young prospects and help guys like Reynolds and Hayes as well. Next season should be the last season that losing anywhere between 90-100 is even remotely acceptable. Things need to turn and turn a lot come 2023.
Agreed. I think it's imperative that veterans are brought in to help the young guys, to teach them what coaches can't about how to succeed and deal with failure during a major league season. So, yes, spending money for a few of those free agents will serve more than one purpose.
How bout your favorite, Wong?
For me, Contreras looked much more polished than Cruz. But three innings of high 90s is very different than 6 innings. He deserves some AAA starts to work on the million things he needs to perfect.
Cruz is raw. I could feel that he was going to hit a HR during his two games of opportunity just like I can feel he’s going to hit many many HRs as a pirate. But at the plate I also saw him totally overwhelmed on a few pitches. He will probably spend most of next season in AAA.
But we got a taste of what’s ahead. By this time next year we will be talking about what pieces need to be added to complete the 2023 team - who are the prospects that will be ready, what FAs need to be added.
I’m hoping by the end of the season guys like Cruz, Nick Gonzales, Puguero, and Mason Martin just to name a few and there are other guys as well but either all are up here or being talked about being in the 2023 starting lineup on opening day. Something is seriously wrong if we are not. Also, hopefully Contreras and Priester just to name a few of the young pitching prospects are being talked about being in the starting rotation to start 2023. Like you talked about as well VA [highlight]they have to go out and sign some free agents[/highlight] as well and spend some damn money to add to help these young prospects and help guys like Reynolds and Hayes as well. Next season should be the last season that losing anywhere between 90-100 is even remotely acceptable. Things need to turn and turn a lot come 2023.
Agreed. I think it's imperative that veterans are brought in to help the young guys, to teach them what coaches can't about how to succeed and deal with failure during a major league season. So, yes, spending money for a few of those free agents will serve more than one purpose.
How bout your favorite, Wong?
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CarolinaBucco
Cruz and Contreras…
If Nutting has any interest in being competitive next year (I realize, he does not), then the Pirates absolutely HAVE to go out this off-season and spend some dang money and sign some LEGITIMATE free agent starting pitchers.
We cannot go into another 162-game scheduled with ZERO major league caliber pitching. That's what we did this year and we saw the results. When you're entire starting rotation has not real business being in the big leagues, you're just asking for a 100-loss season.
We need to sign, at a minimum, two REAL starters. And yes that will take a lot of money ... which means there is no chance of it happening.
We cannot go into another 162-game scheduled with ZERO major league caliber pitching. That's what we did this year and we saw the results. When you're entire starting rotation has not real business being in the big leagues, you're just asking for a 100-loss season.
We need to sign, at a minimum, two REAL starters. And yes that will take a lot of money ... which means there is no chance of it happening.
Cruz and Contreras…
193439282F3E29696A5B0 wrote: Should both be in the starting lineup and in the starting rotation come April next season. The Pirates really have nobody better right now on both the pitching staff and position player wise to justify not doing so. Let them start the season with the big club and roll with it . Having both of them on the roster will make them a much better team to start 2022.
I disagree. Although they might already be good enough to be an improvement of what the Pirates could otherwise have to open the season, both have almost no AAA experience and throwing them to the wolves at the MLB level might prevent them from maximizing their ability. I would start them at AAA at least for about 2 months and then bring them up if they are doing well.
With you 100% on this, Bobster. Let em knock the door down!
I disagree. Although they might already be good enough to be an improvement of what the Pirates could otherwise have to open the season, both have almost no AAA experience and throwing them to the wolves at the MLB level might prevent them from maximizing their ability. I would start them at AAA at least for about 2 months and then bring them up if they are doing well.
With you 100% on this, Bobster. Let em knock the door down!
Cruz and Contreras…
112F2A22312929220227302374460 wrote: Should both be in the starting lineup and in the starting rotation come April next season. The Pirates really have nobody better right now on both the pitching staff and position player wise to justify not doing so. Let them start the season with the big club and roll with it . Having both of them on the roster will make them a much better team to start 2022.
As far as Cruz is concerned, a lot depends what they decide to do with Newman
True, Dave, and as Newman's biggest fan, I'd like to say that gold glove defense at SS should count for something. Somebody has to bat eighth.
As far as Cruz is concerned, a lot depends what they decide to do with Newman
True, Dave, and as Newman's biggest fan, I'd like to say that gold glove defense at SS should count for something. Somebody has to bat eighth.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Cruz and Contreras…
754B4E46554D4D466643544710220 wrote: Freddy, you’re going to get your wish but a couple months later than you are hoping for.
For me, Contreras looked much more polished than Cruz. But three innings of high 90s is very different than 6 innings. He deserves some AAA starts to work on the million things he needs to perfect.
Cruz is raw. I could feel that he was going to hit a HR during his two games of opportunity just like I can feel he’s going to hit many many HRs as a pirate. But at the plate I also saw him totally overwhelmed on a few pitches. He will probably spend most of next season in AAA.
But we got a taste of what’s ahead. By this time next year we will be talking about what pieces need to be added to complete the 2023 team - who are the prospects that will be ready, what FAs need to be added.
I’m hoping by the end of the season guys like Cruz, Nick Gonzales, Puguero, and Mason Martin just to name a few and there are other guys as well but either all are up here or being talked about being in the 2023 starting lineup on opening day. Something is seriously wrong if we are not. Also, hopefully Contreras and Priester just to name a few of the young pitching prospects are being talked about being in the starting rotation to start 2023. Like you talked about as well VA [highlight]they have to go out and sign some free agents[/highlight] as well and spend some damn money to add to help these young prospects and help guys like Reynolds and Hayes as well. Next season should be the last season that losing anywhere between 90-100 is even remotely acceptable. Things need to turn and turn a lot come 2023.
Agreed. I think it's imperative that veterans are brought in to help the young guys, to teach them what coaches can't about how to succeed and deal with failure during a major league season. So, yes, spending money for a few of those free agents will serve more than one purpose.
How bout your favorite, Wong?
I'll give it a pass. I'd have a very hard time rooting for him.
For me, Contreras looked much more polished than Cruz. But three innings of high 90s is very different than 6 innings. He deserves some AAA starts to work on the million things he needs to perfect.
Cruz is raw. I could feel that he was going to hit a HR during his two games of opportunity just like I can feel he’s going to hit many many HRs as a pirate. But at the plate I also saw him totally overwhelmed on a few pitches. He will probably spend most of next season in AAA.
But we got a taste of what’s ahead. By this time next year we will be talking about what pieces need to be added to complete the 2023 team - who are the prospects that will be ready, what FAs need to be added.
I’m hoping by the end of the season guys like Cruz, Nick Gonzales, Puguero, and Mason Martin just to name a few and there are other guys as well but either all are up here or being talked about being in the 2023 starting lineup on opening day. Something is seriously wrong if we are not. Also, hopefully Contreras and Priester just to name a few of the young pitching prospects are being talked about being in the starting rotation to start 2023. Like you talked about as well VA [highlight]they have to go out and sign some free agents[/highlight] as well and spend some damn money to add to help these young prospects and help guys like Reynolds and Hayes as well. Next season should be the last season that losing anywhere between 90-100 is even remotely acceptable. Things need to turn and turn a lot come 2023.
Agreed. I think it's imperative that veterans are brought in to help the young guys, to teach them what coaches can't about how to succeed and deal with failure during a major league season. So, yes, spending money for a few of those free agents will serve more than one purpose.
How bout your favorite, Wong?
I'll give it a pass. I'd have a very hard time rooting for him.
Cruz and Contreras…
Contreas clearly needs more time to develop arm strength at the minor league level before being expected to hold down a regular starting spot in MLB. He had a great year when he was able to pitch, but missed quite a bit of the season and was on a low pitch count after he returned. Contreas has little value to the Pirates if he is in the starting rotation, but then needs to take a month or two off to try and work through an injury and regain strength.
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
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Bobster21
Cruz and Contreras…
19353D3A3116213727540 wrote: Contreas clearly needs more time to develop arm strength at the minor league level before being expected to hold down a regular starting spot in MLB. He had a great year when he was able to pitch, but missed quite a bit of the season and was on a low pitch count after he returned. Contreas has little value to the Pirates if he is in the starting rotation, but then needs to take a month or two off to try and work through an injury and regain strength.
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
Cruz is suspect defensively and Peguero is a year behind him and the likely SS of the future. I think Cruz has a future at 1B or OF but maybe this year in the minors they just wanted to focus on his hitting without making him uncomfortable learning a new position.
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
Cruz is suspect defensively and Peguero is a year behind him and the likely SS of the future. I think Cruz has a future at 1B or OF but maybe this year in the minors they just wanted to focus on his hitting without making him uncomfortable learning a new position.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Cruz and Contreras…
6F48595D58457A4E595858453C0 wrote: Should both be in the starting lineup and in the starting rotation come April next season. The Pirates really have nobody better right now on both the pitching staff and position player wise to justify not doing so. Let them start the season with the big club and roll with it . Having both of them on the roster will make them a much better team to start 2022.
That makes little sense for multiple reasons. Both had injuries and did not play a full season, both barely played in AAA, and then there is the issue of how player control changes with the new CBA, if at all. You cannot waste a full year of control for a handful of games in April, that is negligence.
That makes little sense for multiple reasons. Both had injuries and did not play a full season, both barely played in AAA, and then there is the issue of how player control changes with the new CBA, if at all. You cannot waste a full year of control for a handful of games in April, that is negligence.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Cruz and Contreras…
755855444352450506370 wrote: Contreas clearly needs more time to develop arm strength at the minor league level before being expected to hold down a regular starting spot in MLB. He had a great year when he was able to pitch, but missed quite a bit of the season and was on a low pitch count after he returned. Contreas has little value to the Pirates if he is in the starting rotation, but then needs to take a month or two off to try and work through an injury and regain strength.
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
Cruz is suspect defensively and Peguero is a year behind him and the likely SS of the future. I think Cruz has a future at 1B or OF but maybe this year in the minors they just wanted to focus on his hitting without making him uncomfortable learning a new position.
1B for Cruz would be a complete waste of his talents. I cannot understand how people think that is even remotely possible. Maybe in 15 years. Sorry, that is a terrible suggestion.
Not sure where the idea comes from that he has suspect defense. Many players had high error counts in the minors, doesnt mean anything. His issue is mostly on throws. Jack Wilson had 34 errors at 21. Was he suspect defensively?
As some others noted, I believe one of the real issues with Cruz is where he will play. Despite what appears to be a preference from him to remain at SS, I continue to believe that his future is at another position, albeit RF, LF, or even 1st base (Good fielding 1st basemen have value). I too would like to see him start the season at AAA to see if his late-season surge is a harbinger (hopefully) of what is to come.
The Pirates just finished what obviously was a very rough year, particularly on the pitching end. Unfortunately, I don't see many bright spots for next year's rotation. On the position player side, I think we'll see a lot of the same cast of players returning, hopefully with at least a new reserve catcher. That said, BC should not be shy about trading any of the position players not named Reynolds, Stallings or Hayes if there is a reasonable return in talent.
Cruz is suspect defensively and Peguero is a year behind him and the likely SS of the future. I think Cruz has a future at 1B or OF but maybe this year in the minors they just wanted to focus on his hitting without making him uncomfortable learning a new position.
1B for Cruz would be a complete waste of his talents. I cannot understand how people think that is even remotely possible. Maybe in 15 years. Sorry, that is a terrible suggestion.
Not sure where the idea comes from that he has suspect defense. Many players had high error counts in the minors, doesnt mean anything. His issue is mostly on throws. Jack Wilson had 34 errors at 21. Was he suspect defensively?