6A717C7D747877190 wrote: Differences, Philosophy-Style
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
_______
It is just mind numbing with the continuous defense of Cherington no matter how poor his performance is. I am beginning to believe that if his teams ended up in last place 10 consecutive years until 2031, then we would hear that in 2035, we will be good.
The "continuous defense" of BC is nothing more than trying to evaluate what he is doing objectively instead of through your hate colored glasses. None of us like the state of the 2021 MLB roster. But most of us realize that was not his focus. With little in the farm system from NH and no money from Nutting to work with there was little he could do to about the current MLB roster. So he has focused on building up the talent in the minors and just about every ranking indicates he has made the Pirates minor league system one of the best in MLB.
However, it remains to be seen if the minor league talent will turn into a competitive MLB roster. If it does we will praise BC and if it doesn't we will bash him as a failure who was not able to identify or develop talent. But you refuse to wait to see how BC's efforts turn out. You only care about the W-L record of the 2021 MLB roster that everyone except you seems to realize is in a state of flux and not built to contend. And because you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that, you have an issue with everyone else who does. The "continuous defense" of BC is just people taking a realistic view of the situation instead of sharing your kneejerk reaction to the W-L record of a bad team in the midst of a rebuild with a relatively new GM who still hasn't even finished 1 full season with the organization.
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
I mean, it would be one thing if we were trying to get to the playoffs this season and failing. Even though for some reason they didn't want to admit it in public, they were doing a full teardown and rebuild. I for one can't judge what they were doing in that regard last season in any substantial way. This year, well, they certainly tore down. It seems like they're doing some work so far, but it won't be for a few years until I'm comfortable saying whether they're doing a good or bad job at that. I'm not sure how anyone can have a strong opinion on that one way or another at this point.
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
0B262B3A3D2C3B7B78490 wrote: Differences, Philosophy-Style
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
_______
It is just mind numbing with the continuous defense of Cherington no matter how poor his performance is. I am beginning to believe that if his teams ended up in last place 10 consecutive years until 2031, then we would hear that in 2035, we will be good.
The "continuous defense" of BC is nothing more than trying to evaluate what he is doing objectively instead of through your hate colored glasses. None of us like the state of the 2021 MLB roster. But most of us realize that was not his focus. With little in the farm system from NH and no money from Nutting to work with there was little he could do to about the current MLB roster. So he has focused on building up the talent in the minors and just about every ranking indicates he has made the Pirates minor league system one of the best in MLB.
However, it remains to be seen if the minor league talent will turn into a competitive MLB roster. If it does we will praise BC and if it doesn't we will bash him as a failure who was not able to identify or develop talent. But you refuse to wait to see how BC's efforts turn out. You only care about the W-L record of the 2021 MLB roster that everyone except you seems to realize is in a state of flux and not built to contend. And because you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that, you have an issue with everyone else who does. The "continuous defense" of BC is just people taking a realistic view of the situation instead of sharing your kneejerk reaction to the W-L record of a bad team in the midst of a rebuild with a relatively new GM who still hasn't even finished 1 full season with the organization.
________
All I want to know is when will Cherington field a team that does not end up in last place. I am not asking for a spot in the World Series, I am not asking for a NL Pennant, I am not asking for a Division Championship, and I am not ever asking when he will have a winning record.
I am asking when he will be held accountable for finishing last, His 1st year, we ended up in last place. This year we will end up in last place. In all likelihood, next year we will end up in last place.
So, my question is what year will we end up with a W-L record better than 1 team in our Division. I am 72 and I would like to know if I will still be around when we get out of last place. I am not interested in improvements to the farm system or adding talent to the system, but rather what year will we not be in last place.
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
_______
It is just mind numbing with the continuous defense of Cherington no matter how poor his performance is. I am beginning to believe that if his teams ended up in last place 10 consecutive years until 2031, then we would hear that in 2035, we will be good.
The "continuous defense" of BC is nothing more than trying to evaluate what he is doing objectively instead of through your hate colored glasses. None of us like the state of the 2021 MLB roster. But most of us realize that was not his focus. With little in the farm system from NH and no money from Nutting to work with there was little he could do to about the current MLB roster. So he has focused on building up the talent in the minors and just about every ranking indicates he has made the Pirates minor league system one of the best in MLB.
However, it remains to be seen if the minor league talent will turn into a competitive MLB roster. If it does we will praise BC and if it doesn't we will bash him as a failure who was not able to identify or develop talent. But you refuse to wait to see how BC's efforts turn out. You only care about the W-L record of the 2021 MLB roster that everyone except you seems to realize is in a state of flux and not built to contend. And because you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that, you have an issue with everyone else who does. The "continuous defense" of BC is just people taking a realistic view of the situation instead of sharing your kneejerk reaction to the W-L record of a bad team in the midst of a rebuild with a relatively new GM who still hasn't even finished 1 full season with the organization.
________
All I want to know is when will Cherington field a team that does not end up in last place. I am not asking for a spot in the World Series, I am not asking for a NL Pennant, I am not asking for a Division Championship, and I am not ever asking when he will have a winning record.
I am asking when he will be held accountable for finishing last, His 1st year, we ended up in last place. This year we will end up in last place. In all likelihood, next year we will end up in last place.
So, my question is what year will we end up with a W-L record better than 1 team in our Division. I am 72 and I would like to know if I will still be around when we get out of last place. I am not interested in improvements to the farm system or adding talent to the system, but rather what year will we not be in last place.
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Bobster21
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
79626F6E676B640A0 wrote: Differences, Philosophy-Style
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
_______
It is just mind numbing with the continuous defense of Cherington no matter how poor his performance is. I am beginning to believe that if his teams ended up in last place 10 consecutive years until 2031, then we would hear that in 2035, we will be good.
The "continuous defense" of BC is nothing more than trying to evaluate what he is doing objectively instead of through your hate colored glasses. None of us like the state of the 2021 MLB roster. But most of us realize that was not his focus. With little in the farm system from NH and no money from Nutting to work with there was little he could do to about the current MLB roster. So he has focused on building up the talent in the minors and just about every ranking indicates he has made the Pirates minor league system one of the best in MLB.
However, it remains to be seen if the minor league talent will turn into a competitive MLB roster. If it does we will praise BC and if it doesn't we will bash him as a failure who was not able to identify or develop talent. But you refuse to wait to see how BC's efforts turn out. You only care about the W-L record of the 2021 MLB roster that everyone except you seems to realize is in a state of flux and not built to contend. And because you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that, you have an issue with everyone else who does. The "continuous defense" of BC is just people taking a realistic view of the situation instead of sharing your kneejerk reaction to the W-L record of a bad team in the midst of a rebuild with a relatively new GM who still hasn't even finished 1 full season with the organization.
________
All I want to know is when will Cherington field a team that does not end up in last place. I am not asking for a spot in the World Series, I am not asking for a NL Pennant, I am not asking for a Division Championship, and I am not ever asking when he will have a winning record.
I am asking when he will be held accountable for finishing last, His 1st year, we ended up in last place. This year we will end up in last place. In all likelihood, next year we will end up in last place.
So, my question is what year will we end up with a W-L record better than 1 team in our Division. I am 72 and I would like to know if I will still be around when we get out of last place. I am not interested in improvements to the farm system or adding talent to the system, but rather what year will we not be in last place.
And there is precisely the problem. You want things done on your timetable; not theirs. And unfortunately for you, they are operating on their timetable and not yours. So instead of being invested on what they are doing to improve the team, you rail against them for not doing it on your terms even though that is not even remotely possible with Nutting. Unless you expect Nutting to immediately start shelling out money to add established, productive players to the MLB roster, you had better hope that BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
It remains to be seen if BC is adding the talent to succeed. But I would rather see them trade for prospects who might turn the team into a legit contender in another couple of years than to see them trade for a veteran who might help them get into next to last place with little hope of doing any better than that.
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
_______
It is just mind numbing with the continuous defense of Cherington no matter how poor his performance is. I am beginning to believe that if his teams ended up in last place 10 consecutive years until 2031, then we would hear that in 2035, we will be good.
The "continuous defense" of BC is nothing more than trying to evaluate what he is doing objectively instead of through your hate colored glasses. None of us like the state of the 2021 MLB roster. But most of us realize that was not his focus. With little in the farm system from NH and no money from Nutting to work with there was little he could do to about the current MLB roster. So he has focused on building up the talent in the minors and just about every ranking indicates he has made the Pirates minor league system one of the best in MLB.
However, it remains to be seen if the minor league talent will turn into a competitive MLB roster. If it does we will praise BC and if it doesn't we will bash him as a failure who was not able to identify or develop talent. But you refuse to wait to see how BC's efforts turn out. You only care about the W-L record of the 2021 MLB roster that everyone except you seems to realize is in a state of flux and not built to contend. And because you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that, you have an issue with everyone else who does. The "continuous defense" of BC is just people taking a realistic view of the situation instead of sharing your kneejerk reaction to the W-L record of a bad team in the midst of a rebuild with a relatively new GM who still hasn't even finished 1 full season with the organization.
________
All I want to know is when will Cherington field a team that does not end up in last place. I am not asking for a spot in the World Series, I am not asking for a NL Pennant, I am not asking for a Division Championship, and I am not ever asking when he will have a winning record.
I am asking when he will be held accountable for finishing last, His 1st year, we ended up in last place. This year we will end up in last place. In all likelihood, next year we will end up in last place.
So, my question is what year will we end up with a W-L record better than 1 team in our Division. I am 72 and I would like to know if I will still be around when we get out of last place. I am not interested in improvements to the farm system or adding talent to the system, but rather what year will we not be in last place.
And there is precisely the problem. You want things done on your timetable; not theirs. And unfortunately for you, they are operating on their timetable and not yours. So instead of being invested on what they are doing to improve the team, you rail against them for not doing it on your terms even though that is not even remotely possible with Nutting. Unless you expect Nutting to immediately start shelling out money to add established, productive players to the MLB roster, you had better hope that BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
It remains to be seen if BC is adding the talent to succeed. But I would rather see them trade for prospects who might turn the team into a legit contender in another couple of years than to see them trade for a veteran who might help them get into next to last place with little hope of doing any better than that.
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ArnoldRothstein
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
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Bobster21
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
04372B2A2921172A312D3631202C2B450 wrote: BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
537572676E6275636B000 wrote:
I don't think what you posted was directly from Shelton. No way Shelton said those exact words.
This is a quote from the Trib, which is saying the same thing as last night:
Shelton said the decision to fire Eckstein was not based on individual player results but rather the “vision of our hitting program moving forward.”
“I think this decision was based off the leadership moving forward and the direction we want our hitting group to go in, not only at the major-league level but organizationally,” Shelton said. “That was the reason why. To say it was specific hitter-based or group-based, it was more about how we want to move forward with our hitting program and finding a different leader to do that.”
That is not what you posted, there was one key word there, which you managed to get greenweenie to repeat. I thought it was funny, tough crowd.
I don't think what you posted was directly from Shelton. No way Shelton said those exact words.
This is a quote from the Trib, which is saying the same thing as last night:
Shelton said the decision to fire Eckstein was not based on individual player results but rather the “vision of our hitting program moving forward.”
“I think this decision was based off the leadership moving forward and the direction we want our hitting group to go in, not only at the major-league level but organizationally,” Shelton said. “That was the reason why. To say it was specific hitter-based or group-based, it was more about how we want to move forward with our hitting program and finding a different leader to do that.”
That is not what you posted, there was one key word there, which you managed to get greenweenie to repeat. I thought it was funny, tough crowd.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
406D60717667703033020 wrote: BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
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Bobster21
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
0621282821323121063127440 wrote: BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
Payroll is always going to be the major obstacle with Nutting. That's why I can't consider that "evidence" of a particular plan. We know that any Pirate GM is going to have to work within those dire financial constraints. But if the idea was simply to have a cheap team, there was no reason to fire NH and hire BC. The Pirates need their GM to be better at identifying, obtaining and developing talent than NH was. That would appear to be the plan BC had embarked on. Time will tell if he succeeds.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
Payroll is always going to be the major obstacle with Nutting. That's why I can't consider that "evidence" of a particular plan. We know that any Pirate GM is going to have to work within those dire financial constraints. But if the idea was simply to have a cheap team, there was no reason to fire NH and hire BC. The Pirates need their GM to be better at identifying, obtaining and developing talent than NH was. That would appear to be the plan BC had embarked on. Time will tell if he succeeds.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
0D202D3C3B2A3D7D7E4F0 wrote: BC's plan to add talent to the system through the draft and trades is successful. Because that is what they are banking on to get out of last place and beyond.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
Payroll is always going to be the major obstacle with Nutting. That's why I can't consider that "evidence" of a particular plan. We know that any Pirate GM is going to have to work within those dire financial constraints. But if the idea was simply to have a cheap team, there was no reason to fire NH and hire BC. The Pirates need their GM to be better at identifying, obtaining and developing talent than NH was. That would appear to be the plan BC had embarked on. Time will tell if he succeeds.
I mean they're still paying NH right? That would seem to go against the "nutting is cheap" answer to every single question. Like you say.
Does BC have a plan? I think that the best evidence is that he is executing a plan developed by
Nutting and his accountants, and that reflects what's currently fashionable around the league. Say what you want about the last regime, but it had unmistakable signs about it that people were trying out new ideas.
What is this "best evidence" you refer to?
The current payroll maybe? When you are rebuilding and going through a pandemic and then a possible labor stoppage, probably doesn't make sense to lock up players to long term deals when you are going to be bad. I am hoping they sign someone of significance this offseason.
Payroll is always going to be the major obstacle with Nutting. That's why I can't consider that "evidence" of a particular plan. We know that any Pirate GM is going to have to work within those dire financial constraints. But if the idea was simply to have a cheap team, there was no reason to fire NH and hire BC. The Pirates need their GM to be better at identifying, obtaining and developing talent than NH was. That would appear to be the plan BC had embarked on. Time will tell if he succeeds.
I mean they're still paying NH right? That would seem to go against the "nutting is cheap" answer to every single question. Like you say.