5F545C5055544F0A0C7B425A5354541558543B0 wrote: Yes, Martin was a huge signing. They wouldn't have made the playoffs without him. He made a huge difference.
In my life time, Jason Kendall was the best overall catcher the Pirates ever had (he still might be the best Pirate catcher, but he was all bat). They had many defensive catchers but they couldn't hit a lick (Tom Prince is one of the best defensive catchers I ever saw, but couldn't hit.) If you don't hit, you don't play. No matter how good you are on defense. That goes for Catchers too.
Back to Martin, I never saw a Pirates Catcher improve a team so much. Kendall was a .300 hitter, but he didn't make an impact like Martin. Cervelli is a little below Martin, but very good too. It is a big difference. It got me to appreciate the impact Martin made and what Cervelli is making.
That is not really all that accurate.
Catchers should be good on defense first unless they are elite bats like Piazza. Otherwise they are hurting you more than helping you.
The idea that you have to hit to play is a joke? There have been countless elite defensive players that play with poor hitting. Especially catchers.
Just like elite defensive players will play with bad offense, elite hitters will still play with bad defense. Your theory is just not factual.
Tom Prince was good, but you were alive when Jose Molina was catching for the Yankees and Rays.
Jason Kendall was not all bat. Ryan Doumit was.
You seem to be giving Martin the sole credit for the team going from 79 losses to the wild card. That cannot be right.
catcher.
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
catcher.
I agree that catcher is an important defensive position. Team's don't want to put a guy back there just because he can hit. He has to call a good game, control the running game, work well with the pitchers, block balls in the dirt and hopefully frame pitches.
In the NL this year, catchers have the lowest composite BA (.252) of any position other than pitcher. In the AL, catchers have combined for the lowest BA (.230), OBP and SLG of any position.
There's always the exception like Piazza who hit his way into the HOF. But normally, a good defensive catcher can start if he can just be a .230-ish hitter. A good defensive catcher who's also a good hitter is gold.
In the NL this year, catchers have the lowest composite BA (.252) of any position other than pitcher. In the AL, catchers have combined for the lowest BA (.230), OBP and SLG of any position.
There's always the exception like Piazza who hit his way into the HOF. But normally, a good defensive catcher can start if he can just be a .230-ish hitter. A good defensive catcher who's also a good hitter is gold.
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NCBuccofan
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:26 pm
catcher.
173A37262130276764550 wrote: I agree that catcher is an important defensive position. Team's don't want to put a guy back there just because he can hit. He has to call a good game, control the running game, work well with the pitchers, block balls in the dirt and hopefully frame pitches.
In the NL this year, catchers have the lowest composite BA (.252) of any position other than pitcher. In the AL, catchers have combined for the lowest BA (.230), OBP and SLG of any position.
There's always the exception like Piazza who hit his way into the HOF. But normally, a good defensive catcher can start if he can just be a .230-ish hitter. A good defensive catcher who's also a good hitter is gold.
Agree, which is why passing on keeping Martin was questioned. They looked great for it last year with Cervelli making them look like geniuses. He has been pretty average this year (bad bat, good defense).
In the NL this year, catchers have the lowest composite BA (.252) of any position other than pitcher. In the AL, catchers have combined for the lowest BA (.230), OBP and SLG of any position.
There's always the exception like Piazza who hit his way into the HOF. But normally, a good defensive catcher can start if he can just be a .230-ish hitter. A good defensive catcher who's also a good hitter is gold.
Agree, which is why passing on keeping Martin was questioned. They looked great for it last year with Cervelli making them look like geniuses. He has been pretty average this year (bad bat, good defense).
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
catcher.
You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors. It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball.
Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit. There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that.
Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere. He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates. It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before. The guy is hitting.
I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates. He controlled the running game and had some huge hits. His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense. I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team. I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.
Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit. There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that.
Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere. He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates. It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before. The guy is hitting.
I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates. He controlled the running game and had some huge hits. His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense. I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team. I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.
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DemDog
catcher.
68636B676263783D3B4C756D646363226F630C0 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors. It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball.
Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit. There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that.
Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere. He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates. It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before. The guy is hitting.
I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates. He controlled the running game and had some huge hits. His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense. I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team. I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.
Then Pedro must be an anomaly?
Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit. There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that.
Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere. He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates. It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before. The guy is hitting.
I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates. He controlled the running game and had some huge hits. His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense. I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team. I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.
Then Pedro must be an anomaly?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
catcher.
Exactly. Glad someone brought up Pedro again...again...since I am in love with him.
But he proves my point. He played more than anyone at 1B last year. Why was that so? Was it because he was a good fielder or was it because he was the best hitter?
Bad fielders still make 90% of the plays.
But he proves my point. He played more than anyone at 1B last year. Why was that so? Was it because he was a good fielder or was it because he was the best hitter?
Bad fielders still make 90% of the plays.
catcher.
28232B272223387D7B0C352D242323622F234C0 wrote: Exactly. Glad someone brought up Pedro again...again...since I am in love with him.
But he proves my point. He played more than anyone at 1B last year. Why was that so? Was it because he was a good fielder or was it because he was the best hitter?
Bad fielders still make 90% of the plays.
Making 90% of plays isn't good enough for any position. Even if you are a great hitter they will attempt to move you to another position. 95% is borderline for shortstops and now a days it is poor for short.
But he proves my point. He played more than anyone at 1B last year. Why was that so? Was it because he was a good fielder or was it because he was the best hitter?
Bad fielders still make 90% of the plays.
Making 90% of plays isn't good enough for any position. Even if you are a great hitter they will attempt to move you to another position. 95% is borderline for shortstops and now a days it is poor for short.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
catcher.
But they won't cut you loose. I agree with you.
For example, Pedro led the league in errors at 3B three years in a row. Since they liked his bat, they moved him to 1B.
Albert Pujols was tried at 3B, LF, and now found a home at 1B. Do you think the Cardinals were going cut him?
Ryan Doumit played 1b and RF. Craig Wilson was tried at 1B and RF. Keith osik was played at 3B to get his bat in the line up. John Jaso never played 1B before. David Freese never played 1B before. All these guys were on the field because of their bat.
For example, Pedro led the league in errors at 3B three years in a row. Since they liked his bat, they moved him to 1B.
Albert Pujols was tried at 3B, LF, and now found a home at 1B. Do you think the Cardinals were going cut him?
Ryan Doumit played 1b and RF. Craig Wilson was tried at 1B and RF. Keith osik was played at 3B to get his bat in the line up. John Jaso never played 1B before. David Freese never played 1B before. All these guys were on the field because of their bat.
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Bobster21
catcher.
343F373B3E3F246167102931383F3F7E333F500 wrote: But they won't cut you loose. I agree with you.
For example, Pedro led the league in errors at 3B three years in a row. Since they liked his bat, they moved him to 1B.
Albert Pujols was tried at 3B, LF, and now found a home at 1B. Do you think the Cardinals were going cut him?
Ryan Doumit played 1b and RF. Craig Wilson was tried at 1B and RF. Keith osik was played at 3B to get his bat in the line up. John Jaso never played 1B before. David Freese never played 1B before. All these guys were on the field because of their bat.
Yes, 1B is historically the position you put defense-challenged players. It is less demanding since it primarily involves catching throws more than fielding the ball. Unfortunately, even catching the ball became an issue for Pedro. However, as this thread is about catchers, it is worth noting that catcher is not a position where you put a weak defensive player. While teams don't want someone who absolutely cannot hit, they will accept less offense from the catching position than from other positions as long as the catcher is strong behind the plate.
For example, Pedro led the league in errors at 3B three years in a row. Since they liked his bat, they moved him to 1B.
Albert Pujols was tried at 3B, LF, and now found a home at 1B. Do you think the Cardinals were going cut him?
Ryan Doumit played 1b and RF. Craig Wilson was tried at 1B and RF. Keith osik was played at 3B to get his bat in the line up. John Jaso never played 1B before. David Freese never played 1B before. All these guys were on the field because of their bat.
Yes, 1B is historically the position you put defense-challenged players. It is less demanding since it primarily involves catching throws more than fielding the ball. Unfortunately, even catching the ball became an issue for Pedro. However, as this thread is about catchers, it is worth noting that catcher is not a position where you put a weak defensive player. While teams don't want someone who absolutely cannot hit, they will accept less offense from the catching position than from other positions as long as the catcher is strong behind the plate.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
catcher.
Yes, I agree about the Catching position.
It still has to balance out. Teams will take a Jason Kendall and his average defense over Tom Prince and his lack of a bat.
Line up around you helps makes that decision too. martin was the first catcher in a long time to do it all. I appreciated his time here in Pittsburgh.
I don't think Cervelli is as good as Martin, but Cervelli is not far behind. He is at least in the next tier when comparing catchers. I appreciate Cervelli too.
It still has to balance out. Teams will take a Jason Kendall and his average defense over Tom Prince and his lack of a bat.
Line up around you helps makes that decision too. martin was the first catcher in a long time to do it all. I appreciated his time here in Pittsburgh.
I don't think Cervelli is as good as Martin, but Cervelli is not far behind. He is at least in the next tier when comparing catchers. I appreciate Cervelli too.