McCutchen, Harrison, Kang, Jaso are the bats that need to start hitting. Three of the four have been hitting earlier in the year.
Liriano and Cole dominating again is needed big time too.
These are the reasons why the team is in the place they are in right now.
I still think they bring in a Starter and bullpen arm. Is this the year they go big and get a big name (Archer)? I doubt it, but it could be a move for the future and not just a rental.
We need to sell.
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
We need to sell.
I would love the current edition of the Pirates to prove me wrong, but I believe NH should be a very active seller over the next 4+ days. Stated simply, the starting pitching is a mess.
Cole is pitching more like a #3 than a #1, and he was shut down for 3+ weeks earlier this year.
Liriano couldn't even begin to hold an early 4-1 lead yesterday and again had trouble finding the plate.
Tallion is young and has talent, but I don't think anyone can truly project how he will perform over the rest of the season; likely some good and some bad.
Glasnow is now hurting, as is Kuhl.
Williams and Brault are thoughts more than realities.
Niese, Lock, Nicassio and Vogelsong have all been relegated to the bullpen at some point during the season because they were drastically underperforming.
And, despite all of the above, the team is still somehow over .500. That said, the above underperformances do not give me much confidence in the rest of the season. Thus, if think NH should sell IF he can obtain valuable parts for the team's future. Also, I don't want to overpay for most of the pitching that is rumored to be available, most of which isn't much better than what we have.
So - My Thoughts.
1) Call the Dodgers and see if they would consider a trade centered around Urias for McCutchen. Deal likely would involve other lesser pieces to make it work. In short, the Bucs need as many good young arms as possible for the future, and if the team suddenly has too many young good arms, all are very valuable trade chips. Also, Bell and Meadows are both potential replacement players for the OF within the next year.
2) Shop Melancon and Feliz. Neither will be a Pirate next year and both could return talent. Feliz may even return more than Melancon because of his low salary. I know that he is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, but would the Nats bite on Melancon, Feliz and a minor league arm like Tarply for Lucas Gioloto.
3) Shop the middling relievers to see if they attract any interest; Nicassio Caminiero and Hughes. Obviously, not all will be dealt, but see who could bring back the most.
4) Niese, Vogelsong and/or Locke could all have value to some team who is looking for a bottom or rotation starter. Not expecting a lot back, but shedding the rest of Niese's salary would be good --- IF management provides that salary to NH to use as bonus money to offer to a free agent in the off-season. (Put up front bonus to reduce annual salary costs, which could allow Bucs to be more competitive for a good free agent. Same approach would apply to salary saved by dealing McCutchen, Melancon, Feliz, et al)
5) Liriano. If someone is willing to overpay for him, then I consider moving him. Again, salary savings.
6) Joyce. With Bell available and likely little interest from other teams in Jaso, I shop Joyce to see who may be interested in a LH hitting outfielder who could provide some punch. Perhaps a decent return. Also, Joyce will not be here next year. And, I love what he has done for the Pirates.
7) Freeze. With my premise that the team is not likely to be a real contender, I also shop Freeze. Freeze will not be here next year, and will become too expensive and is the type of player who could experience a steep decline. Sell high while the change presents itself.
8) Chris Stewart. Not expecting any real return, but he is now number 4 in the catching ranks with Fryer and Diaz ahead of him. Folks may be looking for some insurance at catcher for this season. Both Diaz and Fryer would be cheaper next year, even though Stewart earns very little.
9) Harrison. Not sure that there would be a lot of interest, but I would gauge what interest other teams have in Harrison. He is providing good defense at 2nd and his versatility could be an asset if Freeze, Joyce, and McCutchen were traded.
I doubt that many or any of the above will or would occur, but I believe the team can be a constructive seller to help retool for 2017 and beyond. AND, with the poor performance that some of the above have offered, perhaps a starting 8 like the following would offer similar production to the current roster:
Jaso - 1st
Frazier/Harrison - 2nd
Polanco - LF
Marte - CF
Kang - 3rd
Bell - RF
Cervelli - C
Mercer - SS
And, a starting staff of Cole, Tallion, Locke, Brault and Glasnow/Kuhl/Vogelsong would be similar to what we have seen so far, with an understanding that the pen would be a mess.
I view the above as how as a way to:
1) Create as many long-term starting options for the pitching staff as possible; good quality prospects with low salaries,
2) Using the failed starters as relievers.
3) Creating a bonus pool of funds for the 2017 season that NH could use as up-front money to compete for at least 1 good quality major league starter. For example, a bonus of $15 mil may allow him to sign a pitcher to a 3-4 year deal for $10 to $12 mil rather than $16 - $18 mil.
Cole is pitching more like a #3 than a #1, and he was shut down for 3+ weeks earlier this year.
Liriano couldn't even begin to hold an early 4-1 lead yesterday and again had trouble finding the plate.
Tallion is young and has talent, but I don't think anyone can truly project how he will perform over the rest of the season; likely some good and some bad.
Glasnow is now hurting, as is Kuhl.
Williams and Brault are thoughts more than realities.
Niese, Lock, Nicassio and Vogelsong have all been relegated to the bullpen at some point during the season because they were drastically underperforming.
And, despite all of the above, the team is still somehow over .500. That said, the above underperformances do not give me much confidence in the rest of the season. Thus, if think NH should sell IF he can obtain valuable parts for the team's future. Also, I don't want to overpay for most of the pitching that is rumored to be available, most of which isn't much better than what we have.
So - My Thoughts.
1) Call the Dodgers and see if they would consider a trade centered around Urias for McCutchen. Deal likely would involve other lesser pieces to make it work. In short, the Bucs need as many good young arms as possible for the future, and if the team suddenly has too many young good arms, all are very valuable trade chips. Also, Bell and Meadows are both potential replacement players for the OF within the next year.
2) Shop Melancon and Feliz. Neither will be a Pirate next year and both could return talent. Feliz may even return more than Melancon because of his low salary. I know that he is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, but would the Nats bite on Melancon, Feliz and a minor league arm like Tarply for Lucas Gioloto.
3) Shop the middling relievers to see if they attract any interest; Nicassio Caminiero and Hughes. Obviously, not all will be dealt, but see who could bring back the most.
4) Niese, Vogelsong and/or Locke could all have value to some team who is looking for a bottom or rotation starter. Not expecting a lot back, but shedding the rest of Niese's salary would be good --- IF management provides that salary to NH to use as bonus money to offer to a free agent in the off-season. (Put up front bonus to reduce annual salary costs, which could allow Bucs to be more competitive for a good free agent. Same approach would apply to salary saved by dealing McCutchen, Melancon, Feliz, et al)
5) Liriano. If someone is willing to overpay for him, then I consider moving him. Again, salary savings.
6) Joyce. With Bell available and likely little interest from other teams in Jaso, I shop Joyce to see who may be interested in a LH hitting outfielder who could provide some punch. Perhaps a decent return. Also, Joyce will not be here next year. And, I love what he has done for the Pirates.
7) Freeze. With my premise that the team is not likely to be a real contender, I also shop Freeze. Freeze will not be here next year, and will become too expensive and is the type of player who could experience a steep decline. Sell high while the change presents itself.
8) Chris Stewart. Not expecting any real return, but he is now number 4 in the catching ranks with Fryer and Diaz ahead of him. Folks may be looking for some insurance at catcher for this season. Both Diaz and Fryer would be cheaper next year, even though Stewart earns very little.
9) Harrison. Not sure that there would be a lot of interest, but I would gauge what interest other teams have in Harrison. He is providing good defense at 2nd and his versatility could be an asset if Freeze, Joyce, and McCutchen were traded.
I doubt that many or any of the above will or would occur, but I believe the team can be a constructive seller to help retool for 2017 and beyond. AND, with the poor performance that some of the above have offered, perhaps a starting 8 like the following would offer similar production to the current roster:
Jaso - 1st
Frazier/Harrison - 2nd
Polanco - LF
Marte - CF
Kang - 3rd
Bell - RF
Cervelli - C
Mercer - SS
And, a starting staff of Cole, Tallion, Locke, Brault and Glasnow/Kuhl/Vogelsong would be similar to what we have seen so far, with an understanding that the pen would be a mess.
I view the above as how as a way to:
1) Create as many long-term starting options for the pitching staff as possible; good quality prospects with low salaries,
2) Using the failed starters as relievers.
3) Creating a bonus pool of funds for the 2017 season that NH could use as up-front money to compete for at least 1 good quality major league starter. For example, a bonus of $15 mil may allow him to sign a pitcher to a 3-4 year deal for $10 to $12 mil rather than $16 - $18 mil.
We need to sell.
794A5657545C6A574C504B4C5D5156380 wrote: I'd be very relectant to tell a team still in the race that management is just going to pull the plug and point to next year. It might not be automatic that the players start up when they want you to again.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
I would say to them "starters can't last more than five innings, bullpen can't hold a lead, hitters can't hit with runners on base and this has gone on for 110 games. Y'all are playing complacent baseball and something needs to change.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
I would say to them "starters can't last more than five innings, bullpen can't hold a lead, hitters can't hit with runners on base and this has gone on for 110 games. Y'all are playing complacent baseball and something needs to change.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
We need to sell.
032F27202B0C3B2D3D4E0 wrote:
2) Shop Melancon and Feliz. Neither will be a Pirate next year and both could return talent. Feliz may even return more than Melancon because of his low salary. I know that he is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, but would the Nats bite on Melancon, Feliz and a minor league arm like Tarply for Lucas Gioloto.
6) Joyce. With Bell available and likely little interest from other teams in Jaso, I shop Joyce to see who may be interested in a LH hitting outfielder who could provide some punch. Perhaps a decent return. Also, Joyce will not be here next year. And, I love what he has done for the Pirates.
7) Freeze. With my premise that the team is not likely to be a real contender, I also shop Freeze. Freeze will not be here next year, and will become too expensive and is the type of player who could experience a steep decline. Sell high while the change presents itself.
I'm on the seller side. The four moves above are the ones I strongly support. One of the reasons is that I think one of these players, or a combination of these players can actually bring something of value back. Many of the other moves would really bring nothing to the system. Maybe you do them just to make room. I don't know.
I've seen this as a season of transition since before the year started. We've already played 9+ rookies at some point this season. I'd rather start the rookie growth process to finish this year than start next year with a bunch of new arms having to experience the trials of learning how to pitch in the major leagues for the first time. After 3 wonderful seasons in a row, I'm having a hard time being inspired by this current group. The starting pitching is so bad...
This is the one chance we have to strengthen the future with a few very decent assets we currently hold -- that we won't have a mere two months from now.
2) Shop Melancon and Feliz. Neither will be a Pirate next year and both could return talent. Feliz may even return more than Melancon because of his low salary. I know that he is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, but would the Nats bite on Melancon, Feliz and a minor league arm like Tarply for Lucas Gioloto.
6) Joyce. With Bell available and likely little interest from other teams in Jaso, I shop Joyce to see who may be interested in a LH hitting outfielder who could provide some punch. Perhaps a decent return. Also, Joyce will not be here next year. And, I love what he has done for the Pirates.
7) Freeze. With my premise that the team is not likely to be a real contender, I also shop Freeze. Freeze will not be here next year, and will become too expensive and is the type of player who could experience a steep decline. Sell high while the change presents itself.
I'm on the seller side. The four moves above are the ones I strongly support. One of the reasons is that I think one of these players, or a combination of these players can actually bring something of value back. Many of the other moves would really bring nothing to the system. Maybe you do them just to make room. I don't know.
I've seen this as a season of transition since before the year started. We've already played 9+ rookies at some point this season. I'd rather start the rookie growth process to finish this year than start next year with a bunch of new arms having to experience the trials of learning how to pitch in the major leagues for the first time. After 3 wonderful seasons in a row, I'm having a hard time being inspired by this current group. The starting pitching is so bad...
This is the one chance we have to strengthen the future with a few very decent assets we currently hold -- that we won't have a mere two months from now.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3481
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
We need to sell.
I agree with shopping Melancon, Joyce, Freese as well as Feliz, but when the Bucs are only 2.5 games from the Wild Card it may not be the time to trade these players. I think all but Melancon could clear waivers in August, so they could delay making a move until then if they fell further out of the race. In 2013 Marlon Byrd cleared waivers in order for the Pirates to trade for him. I can never understand how some good players can clear waivers after the trading deadline in order that they can be dealt to another team.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
We need to sell.
Good post, Maine.
But I don't agree it is time to sell. I also don't think teams will give up pitching that is needed for the players mentioned. Too many rentals in Joyce, Freese, Feliz, Melancon, and Caminera.
Also, players don't do front loaded contracts. I am not sure why, but it is not happening in baseball. That actually hurts a lot of guys (think Happ: Here is $16 million for 2016, but $11 million in 2017, and $9 million in 2018 - better deal for the Pirates who have young talent on the way).
The Pirates are in this even with all their flaws. If in-house guys improve, they can really take control.
But I don't agree it is time to sell. I also don't think teams will give up pitching that is needed for the players mentioned. Too many rentals in Joyce, Freese, Feliz, Melancon, and Caminera.
Also, players don't do front loaded contracts. I am not sure why, but it is not happening in baseball. That actually hurts a lot of guys (think Happ: Here is $16 million for 2016, but $11 million in 2017, and $9 million in 2018 - better deal for the Pirates who have young talent on the way).
The Pirates are in this even with all their flaws. If in-house guys improve, they can really take control.
We need to sell.
040809525B525A57504F55620 wrote: I agree with shopping Melancon, Joyce, Freese as well as Feliz, but when the Bucs are only 2.5 games from the Wild Card it may not be the time to trade these players.
At this point, what difference does it make if we make the Wild Card? Been there, done that x3. We have a lousy rotation, the bullpen is suspect at best, outside Feliz, Melancon, and Watson. Cutch is in absentia and Hurdle thinks he's coming back tonight, every night, so he refuses to treat him like the #7-#8 hitter he now is. Kang's lost it since the rape charges (don't really blame him, but it doesn't change matters).
Hell, just read the rest of the thread. This is the worst-playing team we've fielded since we broke .500. Some of the position players laid the hurt on us, but it was the pitching that buried us, and will continue to bury us. One middling starter and a little marginal bullpen help won't fix that, and that's all we'd end up with if we were buyers. We'd have to literally sell the farm to get what we needed to really make a difference, and I don't see management doing that.
Even if we make it to the Wild Card game, what are the chances of it being yet another one-and-done? More importantly, what if we got lucky and won? With this team, even if we make it past the Wild Card, it will only highlight our weaknesses, whereas in the past, getting past the one-and-done would have brought out our strengths. We had a real chance to win it all in past years, except for having to face ONE amazing pitcher that was having an historic season each time. If we get lucky and win the Wild Card this year, there's virtually no chance we get any further.
Anyway, we have a few more days to think on this and see how the Bucs do before the break. I'm not convinced that ANYTHING that happens the next few days, barring a major injury, should change our minds at this point, though. I was hoping they'd rip up the 2 weeks before the deadline, or fall to pieces, and make the decision easy. Typically, they did the worst thing possible, and just sort of hung around and played .500 so far.
Things just did not break our way this year. Our flyers crashed, and many of our reliable players were not. I guess I'm being kind of insistent in this thread, sorry for that. I'd just hate to let go of any worthwhile prospects in a losing cause, and pass on a chance to improve the team with players that won't be here next year. Guess I've said all I really need to, and MaineBucs said it better anyway. Think I'll just hang back and see how things play out in the next week now.
At this point, what difference does it make if we make the Wild Card? Been there, done that x3. We have a lousy rotation, the bullpen is suspect at best, outside Feliz, Melancon, and Watson. Cutch is in absentia and Hurdle thinks he's coming back tonight, every night, so he refuses to treat him like the #7-#8 hitter he now is. Kang's lost it since the rape charges (don't really blame him, but it doesn't change matters).
Hell, just read the rest of the thread. This is the worst-playing team we've fielded since we broke .500. Some of the position players laid the hurt on us, but it was the pitching that buried us, and will continue to bury us. One middling starter and a little marginal bullpen help won't fix that, and that's all we'd end up with if we were buyers. We'd have to literally sell the farm to get what we needed to really make a difference, and I don't see management doing that.
Even if we make it to the Wild Card game, what are the chances of it being yet another one-and-done? More importantly, what if we got lucky and won? With this team, even if we make it past the Wild Card, it will only highlight our weaknesses, whereas in the past, getting past the one-and-done would have brought out our strengths. We had a real chance to win it all in past years, except for having to face ONE amazing pitcher that was having an historic season each time. If we get lucky and win the Wild Card this year, there's virtually no chance we get any further.
Anyway, we have a few more days to think on this and see how the Bucs do before the break. I'm not convinced that ANYTHING that happens the next few days, barring a major injury, should change our minds at this point, though. I was hoping they'd rip up the 2 weeks before the deadline, or fall to pieces, and make the decision easy. Typically, they did the worst thing possible, and just sort of hung around and played .500 so far.
Things just did not break our way this year. Our flyers crashed, and many of our reliable players were not. I guess I'm being kind of insistent in this thread, sorry for that. I'd just hate to let go of any worthwhile prospects in a losing cause, and pass on a chance to improve the team with players that won't be here next year. Guess I've said all I really need to, and MaineBucs said it better anyway. Think I'll just hang back and see how things play out in the next week now.
We need to sell.
I'm much more comfortable with the idea of the Pirates as sellers than as buyers. I would prefer to stick to a few people to clear space - maybe Jaso and Joyce. They offer some value (maybe limited but still, some value) but a trade would clear the way for Bell and maybe get more playing time for Frazier. Frazier is one likely to go if they try to be buyers - he's both young and major league ready. What many sellers are looking for. Along with him might be people like Meadows, etc. Not a good idea.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
We need to sell.
674C40494C4D171A230 wrote: I agree with shopping Melancon, Joyce, Freese as well as Feliz, but when the Bucs are only 2.5 games from the Wild Card it may not be the time to trade these players.
At this point, what difference does it make if we make the Wild Card? Been there, done that x3. We have a lousy rotation, the bullpen is suspect at best, outside Feliz, Melancon, and Watson. Cutch is in absentia and Hurdle thinks he's coming back tonight, every night, so he refuses to treat him like the #7-#8 hitter he now is. Kang's lost it since the rape charges (don't really blame him, but it doesn't change matters).
Hell, just read the rest of the thread. This is the worst-playing team we've fielded since we broke .500. Some of the position players laid the hurt on us, but it was the pitching that buried us, and will continue to bury us. One middling starter and a little marginal bullpen help won't fix that, and that's all we'd end up with if we were buyers. We'd have to literally sell the farm to get what we needed to really make a difference, and I don't see management doing that.
Even if we make it to the Wild Card game, what are the chances of it being yet another one-and-done? More importantly, what if we got lucky and won? With this team, even if we make it past the Wild Card, it will only highlight our weaknesses, whereas in the past, getting past the one-and-done would have brought out our strengths. We had a real chance to win it all in past years, except for having to face ONE amazing pitcher that was having an historic season each time. If we get lucky and win the Wild Card this year, there's virtually no chance we get any further.
Anyway, we have a few more days to think on this and see how the Bucs do before the break. I'm not convinced that ANYTHING that happens the next few days, barring a major injury, should change our minds at this point, though. I was hoping they'd rip up the 2 weeks before the deadline, or fall to pieces, and make the decision easy. Typically, they did the worst thing possible, and just sort of hung around and played .500 so far.
Things just did not break our way this year. Our flyers crashed, and many of our reliable players were not. I guess I'm being kind of insistent in this thread, sorry for that. I'd just hate to let go of any worthwhile prospects in a losing cause, and pass on a chance to improve the team with players that won't be here next year. Guess I've said all I really need to, and MaineBucs said it better anyway. Think I'll just hang back and see how things play out in the next week now.
I'd rather go and lose than not go at all. There chances would be the same as anyone else if they made it that far.
Did you think the Mets and Royals were the two best teams last year? If the Mets were in the NL Central, they would have been the 4th best team.
It is still important to make the Wild Card. You don't give that up just because you been there three times in a row. We just saw two Wild Card teams play for the World series in 2014. One of them won it all too!
At this point, what difference does it make if we make the Wild Card? Been there, done that x3. We have a lousy rotation, the bullpen is suspect at best, outside Feliz, Melancon, and Watson. Cutch is in absentia and Hurdle thinks he's coming back tonight, every night, so he refuses to treat him like the #7-#8 hitter he now is. Kang's lost it since the rape charges (don't really blame him, but it doesn't change matters).
Hell, just read the rest of the thread. This is the worst-playing team we've fielded since we broke .500. Some of the position players laid the hurt on us, but it was the pitching that buried us, and will continue to bury us. One middling starter and a little marginal bullpen help won't fix that, and that's all we'd end up with if we were buyers. We'd have to literally sell the farm to get what we needed to really make a difference, and I don't see management doing that.
Even if we make it to the Wild Card game, what are the chances of it being yet another one-and-done? More importantly, what if we got lucky and won? With this team, even if we make it past the Wild Card, it will only highlight our weaknesses, whereas in the past, getting past the one-and-done would have brought out our strengths. We had a real chance to win it all in past years, except for having to face ONE amazing pitcher that was having an historic season each time. If we get lucky and win the Wild Card this year, there's virtually no chance we get any further.
Anyway, we have a few more days to think on this and see how the Bucs do before the break. I'm not convinced that ANYTHING that happens the next few days, barring a major injury, should change our minds at this point, though. I was hoping they'd rip up the 2 weeks before the deadline, or fall to pieces, and make the decision easy. Typically, they did the worst thing possible, and just sort of hung around and played .500 so far.
Things just did not break our way this year. Our flyers crashed, and many of our reliable players were not. I guess I'm being kind of insistent in this thread, sorry for that. I'd just hate to let go of any worthwhile prospects in a losing cause, and pass on a chance to improve the team with players that won't be here next year. Guess I've said all I really need to, and MaineBucs said it better anyway. Think I'll just hang back and see how things play out in the next week now.
I'd rather go and lose than not go at all. There chances would be the same as anyone else if they made it that far.
Did you think the Mets and Royals were the two best teams last year? If the Mets were in the NL Central, they would have been the 4th best team.
It is still important to make the Wild Card. You don't give that up just because you been there three times in a row. We just saw two Wild Card teams play for the World series in 2014. One of them won it all too!
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
We need to sell.
You want to blow up the starting pitching staff...I get it. You want to blow up the bullpen...I get it. You want to trade Cutch....I get it.
However if there is one thing that has been the strength of the Pirates this year, it has been the bench. Why is it assumed that Joyce and Freese are gone after this year. These 2 have certainly proven their worth and in my opinion are deserving of being offered multi year contracts. You need these high character, flexible, high performance utility players to be strong. We blew it with Happ last year lets not let these players walk as well.
However if there is one thing that has been the strength of the Pirates this year, it has been the bench. Why is it assumed that Joyce and Freese are gone after this year. These 2 have certainly proven their worth and in my opinion are deserving of being offered multi year contracts. You need these high character, flexible, high performance utility players to be strong. We blew it with Happ last year lets not let these players walk as well.