Get what we can from Shark and other. 5-5 since the All star break ain't making it.
We've got way to many holes to compete this season.
We need to sell.
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3656
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
We need to sell.
If they lose tomorrow night,and have a tough weekend with the Brewers they may move some players if players coming back will help them in future.
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Steve19981
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:57 pm
We need to sell.
526F68726F68060 wrote: Get what we can from Shark and other. 5-5 since the All star break ain't making it.
We've got way to many holes to compete this season.
I wouldn't say they have way too many holes. The lineup is fine. It's not perfect, but really Hurdle has a ton of options and matchups. No need to make a move. The bullpen needs another piece, but I think it's more of a minor tweak. However, it's going to cost a ton to fix the issues they have with an under performing Liriano. To me that's the real problem. The price to get legit replacement #2 is steep. I think one of Kuhl / Brault / Glasnow can easily fill in at the 4. With injuries that's a little more shakey. A two would bump Liriano down to the five where his 2016 roller coaster would be acceptable.
So I see three holes. One can be fixed pretty easily fixed in the bullpen, but probably won't make much of a difference on his own. One not so easy, but it fixes the third. I'm not usually a big proponent of one or two holes derailing the season, but the starting pitching, while better with Taillon, is still not good enough to contend.
We've got way to many holes to compete this season.
I wouldn't say they have way too many holes. The lineup is fine. It's not perfect, but really Hurdle has a ton of options and matchups. No need to make a move. The bullpen needs another piece, but I think it's more of a minor tweak. However, it's going to cost a ton to fix the issues they have with an under performing Liriano. To me that's the real problem. The price to get legit replacement #2 is steep. I think one of Kuhl / Brault / Glasnow can easily fill in at the 4. With injuries that's a little more shakey. A two would bump Liriano down to the five where his 2016 roller coaster would be acceptable.
So I see three holes. One can be fixed pretty easily fixed in the bullpen, but probably won't make much of a difference on his own. One not so easy, but it fixes the third. I'm not usually a big proponent of one or two holes derailing the season, but the starting pitching, while better with Taillon, is still not good enough to contend.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
We need to sell.
Biggest mistake was not resigning JA Happ.Searage fixed him and then we let him go. What is he now....something like 13-3 pitching in the tough hitting AL East.
We need to sell.
6B67663D343D35383F203A0D0 wrote: If they lose tomorrow night,and have a tough weekend with the Brewers they may move some players if players coming back will help them in future.
If we can't do better than mediocre for this stretch, if Cutch can't get his mojo back in the near-term (and by now it's apparent he won't), we probably should. I don't want to throw away young assets that will be of greater trade/play value in the future (recent example: Alex Dickerson for Jaff Decker and a DFA pitcher that is apparently out of baseball now) for a hail-Mary of a season.
Get rid of short-term contracts, save money and hopefully get SOMETHING of future value out of it. Trade away our nearly useless pitching (Locke, Niese, Liriano) if for some strange reason we can get anyone to take a chunk of their contract and/or give us a prospect with any upside at all. We acquire/fill in with whatever pitching we can use on the cheap the rest of the year - even AAA/AAAA-types. They likely won't do too much worse than what we're paying several million each for. Sadly.
Take that saved money (a topic of contention: I know there are some that will say they won't do it, but my suggestion is predicated on them doing it.) and apply it to at least one genuine #2-type pitcher next season. HOPEFULLY, more than one of those very promising AAA pitchers will finally be able to contribute at the ML level, better than Locke or Niese or Liriano, at far lower cost. See if there's another decent pitcher we can land, then take our usual flyers on reclamation projects.
Deal Melancon at the trade deadline, save the remainder of his nearly $10 mil contract, and get something of future value in return. He'll cost more than we'll want to pay next year, and the Bucs have generally not paid a premium for relief pitching. We'll need to beef up the bullpen again next season of course.
13363535200B363E3C2B590 wrote: Biggest mistake was not resigning JA Happ.Searage fixed him and then we let him go. What is he now....something like 13-3 pitching in the tough hitting AL East.
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
If we can't do better than mediocre for this stretch, if Cutch can't get his mojo back in the near-term (and by now it's apparent he won't), we probably should. I don't want to throw away young assets that will be of greater trade/play value in the future (recent example: Alex Dickerson for Jaff Decker and a DFA pitcher that is apparently out of baseball now) for a hail-Mary of a season.
Get rid of short-term contracts, save money and hopefully get SOMETHING of future value out of it. Trade away our nearly useless pitching (Locke, Niese, Liriano) if for some strange reason we can get anyone to take a chunk of their contract and/or give us a prospect with any upside at all. We acquire/fill in with whatever pitching we can use on the cheap the rest of the year - even AAA/AAAA-types. They likely won't do too much worse than what we're paying several million each for. Sadly.
Take that saved money (a topic of contention: I know there are some that will say they won't do it, but my suggestion is predicated on them doing it.) and apply it to at least one genuine #2-type pitcher next season. HOPEFULLY, more than one of those very promising AAA pitchers will finally be able to contribute at the ML level, better than Locke or Niese or Liriano, at far lower cost. See if there's another decent pitcher we can land, then take our usual flyers on reclamation projects.
Deal Melancon at the trade deadline, save the remainder of his nearly $10 mil contract, and get something of future value in return. He'll cost more than we'll want to pay next year, and the Bucs have generally not paid a premium for relief pitching. We'll need to beef up the bullpen again next season of course.
13363535200B363E3C2B590 wrote: Biggest mistake was not resigning JA Happ.Searage fixed him and then we let him go. What is he now....something like 13-3 pitching in the tough hitting AL East.
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
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Bobster21
We need to sell.
09222E27222379744D0 wrote:
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
This is the 2nd time in 2 days I've seen this term used, once directly toward me. Is this meant as a sarcastic slap at people who thought it just might be a good idea to retain a pitcher who responded to what we are all constantly reminded is the excellent tutelage of Searage and posted a 1.72 ERA, 1.026 WHIP and a 5.31 K/W ratio over 11 starts instead of replacing him with Ryan Vogelsong? Because I just don't feel bad about thinking that. Here's another Nostradamus-like prediction: this pitching staff will not be participating in the post season this year. And who's currently in the 2nd WC spot in the AL? That would be Toronto. They're 12 games over .500, which is no doubt helped by the fact that Happ is 13-3.
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
This is the 2nd time in 2 days I've seen this term used, once directly toward me. Is this meant as a sarcastic slap at people who thought it just might be a good idea to retain a pitcher who responded to what we are all constantly reminded is the excellent tutelage of Searage and posted a 1.72 ERA, 1.026 WHIP and a 5.31 K/W ratio over 11 starts instead of replacing him with Ryan Vogelsong? Because I just don't feel bad about thinking that. Here's another Nostradamus-like prediction: this pitching staff will not be participating in the post season this year. And who's currently in the 2nd WC spot in the AL? That would be Toronto. They're 12 games over .500, which is no doubt helped by the fact that Happ is 13-3.
We need to sell.
4E636E7F78697E3E3D0C0 wrote:
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
This is the 2nd time in 2 days I've seen this term used, once directly toward me. Is this meant as a sarcastic slap at people who thought it just might be a good idea to retain a pitcher who responded to what we are all constantly reminded is the excellent tutelage of Searage and posted a 1.72 ERA, 1.026 WHIP and a 5.31 K/W ratio over 11 starts and replace him with Ryan Vogelsong? Because I just don't feel bad about thinking that. Here's another Nostradamus-like prediction: this pitching staff will not be participating in the post season this year. And who's currently in the 2nd WC spot in the AL? That would be Toronto. They're 12 games over .500, which is no doubt helped by the fact that Happ is 13-3.
I encourage you to not take offense, as I meant it in the most positive way. If you believed Happ would be worth his current contract based solely on his 2015 second-half, then you were right, and those who thought otherwise was wrong. I merely meant that it was by no means a given that he would do so, and a lot of people (including myself) thought it was a risk.
I'm a little disappointed that I'm apparently, unknowingly, plagiarizing when I think I'm being funny/clever. I don't recall seeing the Nostradamus quote, though I doubtlessly did. Another ugly sign of old age rears it's head.
Happ was signed Nov 27th, which, IIRC (I could be wrong), was one of the earlier signings of the season. I'm not gonna do the research: I'm sure the steel-trap minds around here will correct me if I'm wrong
Perhaps if we better knew how the market would shake out, we would have jumped on that, or if Happ better new, he would have held out. QUITE a reasonable signing in retrospect.
Some things about last season's pitching market, and Happ in particular: Did Searage not have enough confidence to push a Happ signing? They'd apparently wanted him for over a year (again, IIRC), thinking they could fix him. Having done so, did Searage not think he was a solid risk and worth that amount? Did management ignore Searage's advice? As I mentioned above, it seemed the Bucs, and maybe a few other teams, were not prepared for the price even #3 starters would demand. Was this an unpredictable turn of the market, should they have known, and/or should they have better adjusted for the changing market? I'm pretty sure everyone's going to answer, "Yes" to the latter.
I disagree with your new Nostradamus-like prediction that the current pitching staff will not be participating in the post-season. I agree with your conclusion, but since I'm far from a baseball genius, I disagree that it requires a Nostradamus to get there ;D
There were some here that had a Nostradamus-like prognostication that he would continue his improved performance. However, a couple months improvement is a small-sample size to bet $36 mil over 3 years when your team spends like the Bucs does. Pity no one in the organization didn't see that coming and/or management did not believe he was worth it. So far, that would have been a solid deal for the Bucs and would likely have put us in a better position for contention this year.
This is the 2nd time in 2 days I've seen this term used, once directly toward me. Is this meant as a sarcastic slap at people who thought it just might be a good idea to retain a pitcher who responded to what we are all constantly reminded is the excellent tutelage of Searage and posted a 1.72 ERA, 1.026 WHIP and a 5.31 K/W ratio over 11 starts and replace him with Ryan Vogelsong? Because I just don't feel bad about thinking that. Here's another Nostradamus-like prediction: this pitching staff will not be participating in the post season this year. And who's currently in the 2nd WC spot in the AL? That would be Toronto. They're 12 games over .500, which is no doubt helped by the fact that Happ is 13-3.
I encourage you to not take offense, as I meant it in the most positive way. If you believed Happ would be worth his current contract based solely on his 2015 second-half, then you were right, and those who thought otherwise was wrong. I merely meant that it was by no means a given that he would do so, and a lot of people (including myself) thought it was a risk.
I'm a little disappointed that I'm apparently, unknowingly, plagiarizing when I think I'm being funny/clever. I don't recall seeing the Nostradamus quote, though I doubtlessly did. Another ugly sign of old age rears it's head.
Happ was signed Nov 27th, which, IIRC (I could be wrong), was one of the earlier signings of the season. I'm not gonna do the research: I'm sure the steel-trap minds around here will correct me if I'm wrong
Perhaps if we better knew how the market would shake out, we would have jumped on that, or if Happ better new, he would have held out. QUITE a reasonable signing in retrospect.Some things about last season's pitching market, and Happ in particular: Did Searage not have enough confidence to push a Happ signing? They'd apparently wanted him for over a year (again, IIRC), thinking they could fix him. Having done so, did Searage not think he was a solid risk and worth that amount? Did management ignore Searage's advice? As I mentioned above, it seemed the Bucs, and maybe a few other teams, were not prepared for the price even #3 starters would demand. Was this an unpredictable turn of the market, should they have known, and/or should they have better adjusted for the changing market? I'm pretty sure everyone's going to answer, "Yes" to the latter.
I disagree with your new Nostradamus-like prediction that the current pitching staff will not be participating in the post-season. I agree with your conclusion, but since I'm far from a baseball genius, I disagree that it requires a Nostradamus to get there ;D
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
We need to sell.
The Happ signing didn't happen because the guy is 33 years old. A one year deal, yeah. A two year deal, maybe. No way on a three year deal.
The Pirates strength is young pitching. With Taillon, Glasnow, Kuhl, Brault, Williams, Cumpton, and Kingham there was no way they would sign an aging vet to that amount of money.
If Niese and Liriano were average. Not great, but average no one would care about Happ as the Pirates would be leading the wild card and closer to the Cubs. No one predicted the drop off those two are having, especially Liriano. This is also Happ's third winning season in his ten year career (last year being his second being saved by the Pirates).
I understood why those aging pitching vets were signed to that kind of money and years in the off season. I just don't understand why others don't get it?
The Pirates strength is young pitching. With Taillon, Glasnow, Kuhl, Brault, Williams, Cumpton, and Kingham there was no way they would sign an aging vet to that amount of money.
If Niese and Liriano were average. Not great, but average no one would care about Happ as the Pirates would be leading the wild card and closer to the Cubs. No one predicted the drop off those two are having, especially Liriano. This is also Happ's third winning season in his ten year career (last year being his second being saved by the Pirates).
I understood why those aging pitching vets were signed to that kind of money and years in the off season. I just don't understand why others don't get it?
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ArnoldRothstein
We need to sell.
I'd be very relectant to tell a team still in the race that management is just going to pull the plug and point to next year. It might not be automatic that the players start up when they want you to again.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
We need to sell.
49424A464342591C1A6D544C454242034E422D0 wrote: The Happ signing didn't happen because the guy is 33 years old. A one year deal, yeah. A two year deal, maybe. No way on a three year deal.
If Niese and Liriano were average. Not great, but average no one would care about Happ as the Pirates would be leading the wild card and closer to the Cubs. No one predicted the drop off those two are having, especially Liriano. This is also Happ's third winning season in his ten year career (last year being his second being saved by the Pirates).
I understood why those aging pitching vets were signed to that kind of money and years in the off season. I just don't understand why others don't get it?
Just goes to show you there are many factors in deciding risk, and weighing where to spend your money. I didn't mention in my earlier posts that Happ's excellent 2016 is only the first of a three-year contract. I didn't really want to go into it there, but it's a good point.
5D6E727370784E7368746F687975721C0 wrote: I'd be very relectant to tell a team still in the race that management is just going to pull the plug and point to next year. It might not be automatic that the players start up when they want you to again.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
I think the players have to do a better job of showing they're still, "in the race." Cutch is a no-show, as is our starting pitching, except for Cole. The bullpen was a disaster prior to July. It seems to be doing better though that's not saying much, and it's not exactly what you would call deep.
I haven't mentioned Harrison, but it seems like he's becoming expendable since he's been on a downward slope. Maybe if he was a bit more effective than exciting on the basepaths that might tilt things in his direction a bit. He's getting kind of pricey for a glorified utility player, and Frazier might be ready to step up, though at this early point it may be risky.
If Niese and Liriano were average. Not great, but average no one would care about Happ as the Pirates would be leading the wild card and closer to the Cubs. No one predicted the drop off those two are having, especially Liriano. This is also Happ's third winning season in his ten year career (last year being his second being saved by the Pirates).
I understood why those aging pitching vets were signed to that kind of money and years in the off season. I just don't understand why others don't get it?
Just goes to show you there are many factors in deciding risk, and weighing where to spend your money. I didn't mention in my earlier posts that Happ's excellent 2016 is only the first of a three-year contract. I didn't really want to go into it there, but it's a good point.
5D6E727370784E7368746F687975721C0 wrote: I'd be very relectant to tell a team still in the race that management is just going to pull the plug and point to next year. It might not be automatic that the players start up when they want you to again.
There are two different pots of players here, one including Niese and Jaso who you'd like to shed even if it was mid-winter; and the other one including Joyce and Melancon who you'd only deal if you were giving up on the year (I think Harrison has one foot in each pots). Definitely I'd deal guys from the former pot. I wouldn't even consider that selling - they're guys who should be moved whenever, and it's just coincidence that we're near August 1.
I think the players have to do a better job of showing they're still, "in the race." Cutch is a no-show, as is our starting pitching, except for Cole. The bullpen was a disaster prior to July. It seems to be doing better though that's not saying much, and it's not exactly what you would call deep.
I haven't mentioned Harrison, but it seems like he's becoming expendable since he's been on a downward slope. Maybe if he was a bit more effective than exciting on the basepaths that might tilt things in his direction a bit. He's getting kind of pricey for a glorified utility player, and Frazier might be ready to step up, though at this early point it may be risky.