The atmosphere right now is that of defeatism. You can read it on the faces of Cutch, Hurdle etc. (The only exception being Harrison). Hurdle especially does not exhibit the same body language as in previous years. He looks pained when staring out from the dugout at his team. I don't really blame him as he has bee given the task of putting lipstick on a pig.
I am annoyed at the invisibility of the FO and Nutting during these trying times. At least McClatchy was around and would listen to the fans concerns. He sincerely cared but unfortunately did not have the finances to make a difference. Nutting does but refuses to do so.
On the positive side; I think this club can contend in 2018 and beyond. I like the pitching of Nova, Taillon, and the progress made by Glasnow. The key to the future success of the Bucs lies in trading Garret Cole this summer for hopefully a haul from the Yankees. If the Bucs can get a Torres, Chance, Sheffield package they could be set for several years. We cannot waste this valuable asset. Boston gave up a boatload for Sale. We must do the same with Cole.
Not sure what will transpire with Marte and Kang. I would hang onto Harrison and Polanco; build around Bell, Frazier, and Rivero in the pen
What would another GM do?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
15303333260D30383A2D5F0 wrote: The atmosphere right now is that of defeatism. You can read it on the faces of Cutch, Hurdle etc. (The only exception being Harrison). Hurdle especially does not exhibit the same body language as in previous years. He looks pained when staring out from the dugout at his team. I don't really blame him as he has bee given the task of putting lipstick on a pig.
I am annoyed at the invisibility of the FO and Nutting during these trying times. At least McClatchy was around and would listen to the fans concerns. He sincerely cared but unfortunately did not have the finances to make a difference. Nutting does but refuses to do so.
On the positive side; I think this club can contend in 2018 and beyond. I like the pitching of Nova, Taillon, and the progress made by Glasnow. The key to the future success of the Bucs lies in trading Garret Cole this summer for hopefully a haul from the Yankees. If the Bucs can get a Torres, Chance, Sheffield package they could be set for several years. We cannot waste this valuable asset. Boston gave up a boatload for Sale. We must do the same with Cole.
Not sure what will transpire with Marte and Kang. I would hang onto Harrison and Polanco; build around Bell, Frazier, and Rivero in the pen
I agree with everything you wrote. In another thread I even mentioned that the character of this team is fundamentally different then the team of a few years ago. This feels like an "old" pirates team.
And I agree that any rebuild need not take a long time. I think they can be more competitive in 2018 by making bold moves this season, stating with Cole.
I was thinking that Harrison would be part of the trades, but now I'm starting to think he's the intangible that maybe a new club house will need, and he's have a good season as well.
I am annoyed at the invisibility of the FO and Nutting during these trying times. At least McClatchy was around and would listen to the fans concerns. He sincerely cared but unfortunately did not have the finances to make a difference. Nutting does but refuses to do so.
On the positive side; I think this club can contend in 2018 and beyond. I like the pitching of Nova, Taillon, and the progress made by Glasnow. The key to the future success of the Bucs lies in trading Garret Cole this summer for hopefully a haul from the Yankees. If the Bucs can get a Torres, Chance, Sheffield package they could be set for several years. We cannot waste this valuable asset. Boston gave up a boatload for Sale. We must do the same with Cole.
Not sure what will transpire with Marte and Kang. I would hang onto Harrison and Polanco; build around Bell, Frazier, and Rivero in the pen
I agree with everything you wrote. In another thread I even mentioned that the character of this team is fundamentally different then the team of a few years ago. This feels like an "old" pirates team.
And I agree that any rebuild need not take a long time. I think they can be more competitive in 2018 by making bold moves this season, stating with Cole.
I was thinking that Harrison would be part of the trades, but now I'm starting to think he's the intangible that maybe a new club house will need, and he's have a good season as well.
What would another GM do?
5F545C5055544F0A0C7B425A5354541558543B0 wrote: A reload is keeping Cole, Nova, Polanco, Marte, Cervelli, Harrison, and Freese and trading others and bringing in talent to play with them. If those guys are dealt, I can see a rebuilding that will take years. Dealing all of those players would be a fire sale.
Personally, I prefer a reloading. I don't want to give up on Cole, Polanco, and Marte. Cole would be Chris Sale type return based on contract and age.
You want to trade Taillon, Bell, Glasnow, Frazier, McCutchen, Mercer, Kuhl and Rivero?
Personally, I prefer a reloading. I don't want to give up on Cole, Polanco, and Marte. Cole would be Chris Sale type return based on contract and age.
You want to trade Taillon, Bell, Glasnow, Frazier, McCutchen, Mercer, Kuhl and Rivero?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What would another GM do?
6747544948260 wrote: A reload is keeping Cole, Nova, Polanco, Marte, Cervelli, Harrison, and Freese and trading others and bringing in talent to play with them. If those guys are dealt, I can see a rebuilding that will take years. Dealing all of those players would be a fire sale.
Personally, I prefer a reloading. I don't want to give up on Cole, Polanco, and Marte. Cole would be Chris Sale type return based on contract and age.
You want to trade Taillon, Bell, Glasnow, Frazier, McCutchen, Mercer, Kuhl and Rivero?
No. Only McCutchen would be traded out of that group.
???
Personally, I prefer a reloading. I don't want to give up on Cole, Polanco, and Marte. Cole would be Chris Sale type return based on contract and age.
You want to trade Taillon, Bell, Glasnow, Frazier, McCutchen, Mercer, Kuhl and Rivero?
No. Only McCutchen would be traded out of that group.
???
What would another GM do?
Cutch is gone, either by the deadline or after the season. His performance and his contract guarantee that. Cole, if he doesn't implode or succumb to injury, will be a huge trade chip, and will also free up money next year. Clear Cutch and Cole off the payroll and bring in some near-ready prospects. If we can get some bites for short-timers like Watson, see what it gets you.
I wouldn't be thrilled to part with Cole, but the money cleared will be significant to this team('s owners), and he might be the best chip we can kinda-sorta, almost bear to part with. We have to reload the team somehow if we are to compete in the next few years. Damn shame Cutch went and lost his mojo. He could have been a big chip too, and we might even have his replacement lined up for next year, if Meadows doesn't also lose HIS mojo.
I wouldn't be thrilled to part with Cole, but the money cleared will be significant to this team('s owners), and he might be the best chip we can kinda-sorta, almost bear to part with. We have to reload the team somehow if we are to compete in the next few years. Damn shame Cutch went and lost his mojo. He could have been a big chip too, and we might even have his replacement lined up for next year, if Meadows doesn't also lose HIS mojo.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
6A414D4441401A172E0 wrote: Cutch is gone, either by the deadline or after the season. His performance and his contract guarantee that. Cole, if he doesn't implode or succumb to injury, will be a huge trade chip, and will also free up money next year. Clear Cutch and Cole off the payroll and bring in some near-ready prospects. If we can get some bites for short-timers like Watson, see what it gets you.
I wouldn't be thrilled to part with Cole, but the money cleared will be significant to this team('s owners), and he might be the best chip we can kinda-sorta, almost bear to part with. We have to reload the team somehow if we are to compete in the next few years. Damn shame Cutch went and lost his mojo. He could have been a big chip too, and we might even have his replacement lined up for next year, if Meadows doesn't also lose HIS mojo.
If Meadows disappoints that will be hard to overcome. Meadows and Bell need to become all stars. My eye means nothing, but if anybody ever passed the "eye test" it was Meadows when I watched him this spring.
I like Bell's development a lot, both at the plate and at 1st. Frazier looks to be our lightening in a bottle and i see him as part of a new OF. Add Meadows and some of our infield prospects and the lineup to build around looks very promising.
I'm surprised and hopeful about Glasnow - I think by the end of the year we're going to like this kid a lot. Plus Tallion and one or two more from Kuhl, Williams, Holmes, Kingham and I like the rotation to build around a lot.
Add in help from trades and suddenly the Pirates pull off a miracle and begin to contend again next season.
I wouldn't be thrilled to part with Cole, but the money cleared will be significant to this team('s owners), and he might be the best chip we can kinda-sorta, almost bear to part with. We have to reload the team somehow if we are to compete in the next few years. Damn shame Cutch went and lost his mojo. He could have been a big chip too, and we might even have his replacement lined up for next year, if Meadows doesn't also lose HIS mojo.
If Meadows disappoints that will be hard to overcome. Meadows and Bell need to become all stars. My eye means nothing, but if anybody ever passed the "eye test" it was Meadows when I watched him this spring.
I like Bell's development a lot, both at the plate and at 1st. Frazier looks to be our lightening in a bottle and i see him as part of a new OF. Add Meadows and some of our infield prospects and the lineup to build around looks very promising.
I'm surprised and hopeful about Glasnow - I think by the end of the year we're going to like this kid a lot. Plus Tallion and one or two more from Kuhl, Williams, Holmes, Kingham and I like the rotation to build around a lot.
Add in help from trades and suddenly the Pirates pull off a miracle and begin to contend again next season.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What would another GM do?
You can't expect Meadows and Bell to be stars right away.
I thought Bell was in a perfect position as a full time starter. He had good players around him, he could bat 7th, no pressure. The players around him stink right now, but you still ask a lot from them.
The same will go for Meadows. He needs to be eased in and not expected to carry the team. Top players for sure, but they still need to be handled with care. Mike Trout batted mostly 8th and 9th his rookie season.
I thought Bell was in a perfect position as a full time starter. He had good players around him, he could bat 7th, no pressure. The players around him stink right now, but you still ask a lot from them.
The same will go for Meadows. He needs to be eased in and not expected to carry the team. Top players for sure, but they still need to be handled with care. Mike Trout batted mostly 8th and 9th his rookie season.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What would another GM do?
5C575F5356574C090F784159505757165B57380 wrote: You can't expect Meadows and Bell to be stars right away.
I thought Bell was in a perfect position as a full time starter. He had good players around him, he could bat 7th, no pressure. The players around him stink right now, but you still ask a lot from them.
The same will go for Meadows. He needs to be eased in and not expected to carry the team. Top players for sure, but they still need to be handled with care. Mike Trout batted mostly 8th and 9th his rookie season.
That's a fair statement. But I guess I'd rather be looking up at a future than back at a past. Meaning I don't honestly see this team, with any tinkering, being a serious contender. Bell, Meadows can grow. That's what the Walker, Cutch Pedro team did.
I thought Bell was in a perfect position as a full time starter. He had good players around him, he could bat 7th, no pressure. The players around him stink right now, but you still ask a lot from them.
The same will go for Meadows. He needs to be eased in and not expected to carry the team. Top players for sure, but they still need to be handled with care. Mike Trout batted mostly 8th and 9th his rookie season.
That's a fair statement. But I guess I'd rather be looking up at a future than back at a past. Meaning I don't honestly see this team, with any tinkering, being a serious contender. Bell, Meadows can grow. That's what the Walker, Cutch Pedro team did.
What would another GM do?
In looking at the state of the Pirates, my impression is that it is time for the GM and ownership to be bold,very bold in fact.
I credit NH for helping to put the team in a position to regularly be a contender. Two years ago, 2017 looked like it could be a magical year because the team had developed a solid core and some of the young pitching likely would mature to help stock the rotation. Unfortunately, some of the pillars he put in place are unexpectedly crumbling:
- A MVP caliber player who is only 30 suddenly cannot hit or field.
- A 3rd basemen who hit for power and average and who was signed to a contract for less than $4 mil/yr (average salary) was first slow to return from a serious injury and now may never play again because of issues with alcohol abuse.
- A young salary controlled all-star outfielder is now a PED abuser, and who knows how he will play when he returns.
- In RF, another young salary controlled outfielder has ceased to progress and is barely hitting .220 with limited power over the last 80 games or so.
In short, Cutch, Kang, Marte and Polanco weren't just names on the roster, they were the centerpieces of a very good line-up that featured good complimentary players at the other positions in Cervelli, Harrison and Mercer and the promise of someone like Bell. Well, 2017 is now here, and unfortunately, the parts are not firing on all cylinders as was intended or projected.
At present, I hear NH talking about how we will look at where we are in June or July and then decide how we should proceed. As I have stated in previous posts, I believe this sets the table for how you will need to act in the future because you have not adequately addressed the current holes; particularly not enough outfielders. In short, the team likely will be treading water through the end of June, with little real opportunity to suddenly turn it on and play at a .700 pace over the last 75 games or so to be able to become a play-off contender.
Thus, let's be bold and try to assemble a young and well talented team for 2018 and 2019 (similar to the Astros) by aggressively shopping what we have for the best talent available. I think the Pirates have 2 players who would now command a very good return:
1. Cole. He now looks like a top of rotation starter, he is cheap this year and still has years of control.
2. Rivero. He looks great right now. Throwing gas, getting outs, he is a lefty, he is very cheap and he has many years of control. Teams that are having real bullpen problems may be willing to overpay for him if they get him early enough in the season that he could be a difference maker. Also, as good as he has been, I am nervous by the number of games in which he is appearing with the Pirates.
While I don't want to trade either Cole or Rivero because they are performing well for the Pirates and because losing both will result in the Pirates being a worse team in the short-term, they are the best assets that the team has and likely present the best opportunity to get a real return in talent.
I also would move Watson, even if I moved Rivero, and I also would be shopping Nicassio. The pen would be decimated, but the team could be better for it in 2018 and 2019.
I now view Cutch as a non-factor in the team's current and future plans, and would be open to dealing either (or both) of Polanco and Marte, if either could garner a real return.
Frankly, I didn't think we would be where we are right now. The team wouldn't stink if everyone was available, but we are not a strong contender, unless Cutch suddenly finds the legs and hitting ability that he had as a 27 year old. And, mediocrity should not be a goal. Use the best assets that you have to be a playoff caliber team in the near-term and take some risks. Moving Cole and Rivero won't save you any money today (they are both unbelievably cheap), but they may yield you the talent you need for tomorrow.
I credit NH for helping to put the team in a position to regularly be a contender. Two years ago, 2017 looked like it could be a magical year because the team had developed a solid core and some of the young pitching likely would mature to help stock the rotation. Unfortunately, some of the pillars he put in place are unexpectedly crumbling:
- A MVP caliber player who is only 30 suddenly cannot hit or field.
- A 3rd basemen who hit for power and average and who was signed to a contract for less than $4 mil/yr (average salary) was first slow to return from a serious injury and now may never play again because of issues with alcohol abuse.
- A young salary controlled all-star outfielder is now a PED abuser, and who knows how he will play when he returns.
- In RF, another young salary controlled outfielder has ceased to progress and is barely hitting .220 with limited power over the last 80 games or so.
In short, Cutch, Kang, Marte and Polanco weren't just names on the roster, they were the centerpieces of a very good line-up that featured good complimentary players at the other positions in Cervelli, Harrison and Mercer and the promise of someone like Bell. Well, 2017 is now here, and unfortunately, the parts are not firing on all cylinders as was intended or projected.
At present, I hear NH talking about how we will look at where we are in June or July and then decide how we should proceed. As I have stated in previous posts, I believe this sets the table for how you will need to act in the future because you have not adequately addressed the current holes; particularly not enough outfielders. In short, the team likely will be treading water through the end of June, with little real opportunity to suddenly turn it on and play at a .700 pace over the last 75 games or so to be able to become a play-off contender.
Thus, let's be bold and try to assemble a young and well talented team for 2018 and 2019 (similar to the Astros) by aggressively shopping what we have for the best talent available. I think the Pirates have 2 players who would now command a very good return:
1. Cole. He now looks like a top of rotation starter, he is cheap this year and still has years of control.
2. Rivero. He looks great right now. Throwing gas, getting outs, he is a lefty, he is very cheap and he has many years of control. Teams that are having real bullpen problems may be willing to overpay for him if they get him early enough in the season that he could be a difference maker. Also, as good as he has been, I am nervous by the number of games in which he is appearing with the Pirates.
While I don't want to trade either Cole or Rivero because they are performing well for the Pirates and because losing both will result in the Pirates being a worse team in the short-term, they are the best assets that the team has and likely present the best opportunity to get a real return in talent.
I also would move Watson, even if I moved Rivero, and I also would be shopping Nicassio. The pen would be decimated, but the team could be better for it in 2018 and 2019.
I now view Cutch as a non-factor in the team's current and future plans, and would be open to dealing either (or both) of Polanco and Marte, if either could garner a real return.
Frankly, I didn't think we would be where we are right now. The team wouldn't stink if everyone was available, but we are not a strong contender, unless Cutch suddenly finds the legs and hitting ability that he had as a 27 year old. And, mediocrity should not be a goal. Use the best assets that you have to be a playoff caliber team in the near-term and take some risks. Moving Cole and Rivero won't save you any money today (they are both unbelievably cheap), but they may yield you the talent you need for tomorrow.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What would another GM do?
I just don't see the return helping the 2018 Pirates. I hope I am wrong if it happens, but I see the return being younger players who are a few years away. I doubt they would get some top rookie now in return.
Trading Cole could really help the future. The question is how many years from now. Will the return help the current players like Nova, Taillon, Marte, Cervelli and Polanco? These guys just signed (not Taillon) and have expiring contracts.
Trading Cole could really help the future. The question is how many years from now. Will the return help the current players like Nova, Taillon, Marte, Cervelli and Polanco? These guys just signed (not Taillon) and have expiring contracts.