Well, we won't find out until years down the road.
Funny how the Pirates didn't want Liriano in a playoff run, but Toronto did?
Hutchison, Ramirez and Reese are the ones to watch. Ramirez was blocked in Pittsburgh for years to come. Reese is being labeled as a back up. Hutchison did well a few years ago in the majors.
Liriano
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Liriano
363D35393C3D266365122B333A3D3D7C313D520 wrote: Well, we won't find out until years down the road.
Funny how the Pirates didn't want Liriano in a playoff run, but Toronto did?
Hutchison, Ramirez and Reese are the ones to watch. Ramirez was blocked in Pittsburgh for years to come. Reese is being labeled as a back up. Hutchison did well a few years ago in the majors.
also what we will never know is who the Bucs could have gotten if they would traded Reese and Ramirez for somebody else.
It is just more than a little disheartening to me that the Bucs give up on Liriano for having a bad half season and have such financial constraints that they need to get rid of the rest of his contract. Here's hoping that some of that flexibility goes towards a quality player.
Funny how the Pirates didn't want Liriano in a playoff run, but Toronto did?
Hutchison, Ramirez and Reese are the ones to watch. Ramirez was blocked in Pittsburgh for years to come. Reese is being labeled as a back up. Hutchison did well a few years ago in the majors.
also what we will never know is who the Bucs could have gotten if they would traded Reese and Ramirez for somebody else.
It is just more than a little disheartening to me that the Bucs give up on Liriano for having a bad half season and have such financial constraints that they need to get rid of the rest of his contract. Here's hoping that some of that flexibility goes towards a quality player.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Liriano
202B232F2A2B307573043D252C2B2B6A272B440 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
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Bobster21
Liriano
143122372B202B2A2F27430 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Liriano
0E232E3F38293E7E7D4C0 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
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Bobster21
Liriano
143122372B202B2A2F27430 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano for a marginal pitcher, and Ramirez and McGuire so that the Bucs didn't have to pay any of Liriano's remaining contract, it looks more like a salary dump than a trade.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano for a marginal pitcher, and Ramirez and McGuire so that the Bucs didn't have to pay any of Liriano's remaining contract, it looks more like a salary dump than a trade.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Liriano
6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano for a marginal pitcher, and Ramirez and McGuire so that the Bucs didn't have to pay any of Liriano's remaining contract, it looks more like a salary dump than a trade.
Yeah, the Pirates definitely could have chosen to send Liriano away with some money and ended it. It really all depends on how you value Hutchison. I think the Pirates genuinely like him and he probably cost the Pirates at least one if not both prospects. He may be marginal as you say. His ERAs in full-time service in 2014 and 2015 are terrible, but his FIPs are really good. His FIP last last year, for instance, is practically indistinguishable from each of the other starters on that Blue Jays team, but his ERA is 1.5 runs higher than all of them. 2014 was similar. In fact, he pitched with Happ and had a better FIP. He might be a lot better than traditional numbers would indicate. I wouldn't have thought it would take so much to get him, primarily because the Blue Jays weren't utilizing him, but I can see why the Pirates might think he's worth the prospects.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano for a marginal pitcher, and Ramirez and McGuire so that the Bucs didn't have to pay any of Liriano's remaining contract, it looks more like a salary dump than a trade.
Yeah, the Pirates definitely could have chosen to send Liriano away with some money and ended it. It really all depends on how you value Hutchison. I think the Pirates genuinely like him and he probably cost the Pirates at least one if not both prospects. He may be marginal as you say. His ERAs in full-time service in 2014 and 2015 are terrible, but his FIPs are really good. His FIP last last year, for instance, is practically indistinguishable from each of the other starters on that Blue Jays team, but his ERA is 1.5 runs higher than all of them. 2014 was similar. In fact, he pitched with Happ and had a better FIP. He might be a lot better than traditional numbers would indicate. I wouldn't have thought it would take so much to get him, primarily because the Blue Jays weren't utilizing him, but I can see why the Pirates might think he's worth the prospects.
Liriano
446172677B707B7A7F77130 wrote: Or they wanted to win this year and got rid of one of their worst pitchers. How come no one thinks of it that way?
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Hopefully Hutchison will prove the Pirates front office is correct about him
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano f
Yeah, the Pirates definitely could have chosen to send Liriano away with some money and ended it. It really all depends on how you value Hutchison. I think the Pirates genuinely like him and he probably cost the Pirates at least one if not both prospects. He may be marginal as you say. His ERAs in full-time service in 2014 and 2015 are terrible, but his FIPs are really good. His FIP last last year, for instance, is practically indistinguishable from each of the other starters on that Blue Jays team, but his ERA is 1.5 runs higher than all of them. 2014 was similar. In fact, he pitched with Happ and had a better FIP. He might be a lot better than traditional numbers would indicate. I wouldn't have thought it would take so much to get him, primarily because the Blue Jays weren't utilizing him, but I can see why the Pirates might think he's worth the prospects.
Hopefully Hutchison will prove the Pirates front office is correct about him. I consider it to be smh type move and if he fails or is a Jonathan Niese type pitcher then they need to go back to the drawing board on how they look at players. I think signing Freese is ok to have him as a back up and role player. Although a team with a budget like the Pirates have should not be emphasizing getting bench and back up roles filled until it has taken care of players expected to contribute more. The Bucs under NH seem to worry about the margins of the roster.
They just signed Freese too for all of you "financial flexibility" people.
Hopefully Hutchison will prove the Pirates front office is correct about him
Because the chain of events doesn't support that theory. The Pirates were content to keep Liriano in the rotation until the day before they traded him. Then, they traded him for nobody that was providing immediate help to the team. Furthermore, the trade necessitated a companion trade for Nova whom we got for two PTBNLs. There isn't anything about the sequence that says it was about becoming more competitive this season. The Pirates could have simply moved Liriano to the bullpen for a bit and made the Nova trade. The Pirates either desperately wanted to unload the contract or the person. I actually believe it was the latter even though nothing yet has come forward on that topic.
I doubt they were so desperate to get rid of the person that they surrendered 2 top 10 prospects just to get him out of the clubhouse. Unless he was an axe murderer. And they could have offered to pay some of his salary just to get rid of the person. But instead, they gave up the prospects to get rid of the salary. That tells me all I need to know.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. We can't ignore that his contract was likely difficult to trade. It wouldn't seem that the Pirates should have been desperate to unload his contract in a vacuum. They had just traded Melancon's contract. They also received Hutchison and he has some value. The Pirates have also taken on money in the Bastardo and Nova deals. They extended two players earlier and now they've extended Freese. Money seems to be going both ways. It's possible that the Pirates suddenly had to dump Liriano's contract, but the deal is highly unusual and I think there's a different explanation. And, no, he doesn't need to have been an axe murderer for the team to want to be rid of him. He may have become a distraction that was no longer wanted, especially in relation to his performance in the middle of a pennant race. In any event, my initial point was that the Liriano trade was not to become more competitive in 2016. I just gave an alternate potential reason for the trade occurring since salary dumping didn't seem necessary.
Wrathchild, I wasn't being critical of your post. I agree with you that they clearly wanted to get rid of Liriano either for the person or the salary. I've read there were some issues with him. My point is that they could have rid themselves of him without making Toronto pay the full salary and therefore keeping 1 if not both prospects. I doubt he was a horrible enough person (i.e. an axe murderer or even worse--a Yankee fan) that they would so anything to move him including giving away 2 top prospects. So when you look at the deal of Liriano f
Yeah, the Pirates definitely could have chosen to send Liriano away with some money and ended it. It really all depends on how you value Hutchison. I think the Pirates genuinely like him and he probably cost the Pirates at least one if not both prospects. He may be marginal as you say. His ERAs in full-time service in 2014 and 2015 are terrible, but his FIPs are really good. His FIP last last year, for instance, is practically indistinguishable from each of the other starters on that Blue Jays team, but his ERA is 1.5 runs higher than all of them. 2014 was similar. In fact, he pitched with Happ and had a better FIP. He might be a lot better than traditional numbers would indicate. I wouldn't have thought it would take so much to get him, primarily because the Blue Jays weren't utilizing him, but I can see why the Pirates might think he's worth the prospects.
Hopefully Hutchison will prove the Pirates front office is correct about him. I consider it to be smh type move and if he fails or is a Jonathan Niese type pitcher then they need to go back to the drawing board on how they look at players. I think signing Freese is ok to have him as a back up and role player. Although a team with a budget like the Pirates have should not be emphasizing getting bench and back up roles filled until it has taken care of players expected to contribute more. The Bucs under NH seem to worry about the margins of the roster.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Liriano
You also have to take into consideration what the Pirates think of McGuire and Ramirez. Just because they are in the Pirates' top ten (is that media driven?) doesn't mean the Pirates think that highly of them. Also doesn't mean the rest of the league thinks that highly of them either.
Hutchison could be the main player in this deal. If he pans out and it cost the Pirates a young back up catcher and a blocked outfielder, the Pirates got a steal. In the process, the Pirates could have dumped a bad apple (rumor) who was also struggling in Liriano.
I also think there was more to the Liriano deal. It was reported that he wasn't listening to his coach and his coach walked out of a pitching session. Maybe Liriano wanted traded? Maybe Liriano refused to go the bullpen? Was there really a market for him? Funny how some think he will bounce back but hate the thinking of bringing in reclamation projects. Wouldn't Liriano be that type in 2017?
Hutchison could be the main player in this deal. If he pans out and it cost the Pirates a young back up catcher and a blocked outfielder, the Pirates got a steal. In the process, the Pirates could have dumped a bad apple (rumor) who was also struggling in Liriano.
I also think there was more to the Liriano deal. It was reported that he wasn't listening to his coach and his coach walked out of a pitching session. Maybe Liriano wanted traded? Maybe Liriano refused to go the bullpen? Was there really a market for him? Funny how some think he will bounce back but hate the thinking of bringing in reclamation projects. Wouldn't Liriano be that type in 2017?