597D696164080 wrote: This is some of the worst work I've seen from that source, and that's saying something.
Outside of playing bell for John Jaso, something people who have been paying attention have been screaming about since July, there's not a difference making idea among them.
Alan Hanson? Drew Hutchison?
Who is kidding who? These guys arent successful in the MINORS
Tim stated just a few weeks ago how the Pirates virtually had no projected holes for 2017. By my estimation the rotation looks like:
Cole
Taillon
After that... it's a collection of question marks and players a team who's supposed to contend should not be relying on to be part of the middle and back of the rotation.
The bullpen appears to be:
Watson
Rivero
Once again....after those two it's a collection of marginal players like Hughes and Nicasio.
2017 appears to be another bridge year.
I'm pretty much convinced of this as well. Unless the Pirates make some significant trades to improve their roster what I see coming for 2017 is a very young and inexperienced starting pitching staff, a lineup lacking power, and an assembly of the usual assortment of reclamation arms from the MLB discard pile to fill out a bullpen with no proven closer. To hope that all three of those elements of the roster will work out well enough to make for a competitive team is a reach. For this to change the Pirates will have to do something uncharacteristic of them like spend money and/or trade top prospects.
maybe 2016 season was design a bridge year, 2017 will be build a bridge year, 2018 will be still working on bridge because of construction delays.
I am worried that team may have peaked. If team prepares for 2017 in a similar fashion to the 2016 off season I will conclude that they don't think they really can win. A bridge year (s) doesn't make sense to me for a team that says there is no window but wants to compete year in and year out.
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
406667706676050 wrote: This is some of the worst work I've seen from that source, and that's saying something.
Outside of playing bell for John Jaso, something people who have been paying attention have been screaming about since July, there's not a difference making idea among them.
Alan Hanson? Drew Hutchison?
Who is kidding who? These guys arent successful in the MINORS
Tim stated just a few weeks ago how the Pirates virtually had no projected holes for 2017. By my estimation the rotation looks like:
Cole
Taillon
After that... it's a collection of question marks and players a team who's supposed to contend should not be relying on to be part of the middle and back of the rotation.
The bullpen appears to be:
Watson
Rivero
Once again....after those two it's a collection of marginal players like Hughes and Nicasio.
2017 appears to be another bridge year.
I'm pretty much convinced of this as well. Unless the Pirates make some significant trades to improve their roster what I see coming for 2017 is a very young and inexperienced starting pitching staff, a lineup lacking power, and an assembly of the usual assortment of reclamation arms from the MLB discard pile to fill out a bullpen with no proven closer. To hope that all three of those elements of the roster will work out well enough to make for a competitive team is a reach. For this to change the Pirates will have to do something uncharacteristic of them like spend money and/or trade top prospects.
maybe 2016 season was design a bridge year, 2017 will be build a bridge year, 2018 will be still working on bridge because of construction delays.
I am worried that team may have peaked. If team prepares for 2017 in a similar fashion to the 2016 off season I will conclude that they don't think they really can win. A bridge year (s) doesn't make sense to me for a team that says there is no window but wants to compete year in and year out.
I love your bridge metaphor!! ;D
I also think the team may have peaked. The only thing that's going to alter a course based mostly on hopes that our young starting pitchers can be more effective and consistent than is likely or that all of the reclamation projects that NH brings in will have JA Happ-type career turnarounds is if they do something outside of their self-defined operational box. If it's business as usual this off-season then as fans we're going to need to pool all of our rabbits feet, horseshoes and four leaf clovers.
Outside of playing bell for John Jaso, something people who have been paying attention have been screaming about since July, there's not a difference making idea among them.
Alan Hanson? Drew Hutchison?
Who is kidding who? These guys arent successful in the MINORS
Tim stated just a few weeks ago how the Pirates virtually had no projected holes for 2017. By my estimation the rotation looks like:
Cole
Taillon
After that... it's a collection of question marks and players a team who's supposed to contend should not be relying on to be part of the middle and back of the rotation.
The bullpen appears to be:
Watson
Rivero
Once again....after those two it's a collection of marginal players like Hughes and Nicasio.
2017 appears to be another bridge year.
I'm pretty much convinced of this as well. Unless the Pirates make some significant trades to improve their roster what I see coming for 2017 is a very young and inexperienced starting pitching staff, a lineup lacking power, and an assembly of the usual assortment of reclamation arms from the MLB discard pile to fill out a bullpen with no proven closer. To hope that all three of those elements of the roster will work out well enough to make for a competitive team is a reach. For this to change the Pirates will have to do something uncharacteristic of them like spend money and/or trade top prospects.
maybe 2016 season was design a bridge year, 2017 will be build a bridge year, 2018 will be still working on bridge because of construction delays.
I am worried that team may have peaked. If team prepares for 2017 in a similar fashion to the 2016 off season I will conclude that they don't think they really can win. A bridge year (s) doesn't make sense to me for a team that says there is no window but wants to compete year in and year out.
I love your bridge metaphor!! ;D
I also think the team may have peaked. The only thing that's going to alter a course based mostly on hopes that our young starting pitchers can be more effective and consistent than is likely or that all of the reclamation projects that NH brings in will have JA Happ-type career turnarounds is if they do something outside of their self-defined operational box. If it's business as usual this off-season then as fans we're going to need to pool all of our rabbits feet, horseshoes and four leaf clovers.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
Hmmmm. Josh Bell in RF suddenly. Good move. Somebody in the OF is going to be shipped.
Part 1.
Part 1.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
I always thought this team was built for 2017.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
5C575F5356574C090F784159505757165B57380 wrote: I always thought this team was built for 2017.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
I also though 2017 and 18 was set and going to be very good. But they can't bring back a .500 team. Not a blow up, a few very strategic moves and this team will be ready to compete as we originally expected.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
I also though 2017 and 18 was set and going to be very good. But they can't bring back a .500 team. Not a blow up, a few very strategic moves and this team will be ready to compete as we originally expected.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
Everyone on the team should be better next year than this year.
Cervelli and Harrison had terrible years. McCutchen is capable to do so much more and be better. Marte and Polanco should still grow. A healthy Kang should be better too. Maybe Mercer will stay the same along with Freese and other bench guys.
The young pitchers, including Cole, should all grow too. I would add a starter and some bullpen arms.
Some guys who made this a .500 team are gone. 2017 should be a good year. The year we all been waiting for.
Cervelli and Harrison had terrible years. McCutchen is capable to do so much more and be better. Marte and Polanco should still grow. A healthy Kang should be better too. Maybe Mercer will stay the same along with Freese and other bench guys.
The young pitchers, including Cole, should all grow too. I would add a starter and some bullpen arms.
Some guys who made this a .500 team are gone. 2017 should be a good year. The year we all been waiting for.
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
Out of the three outfielders, I hope that the team considers shopping McCutchen for young pitching this off-season. In July, I advocated contacting the Dodgers to see if they would consider a trade built around Urias - McCutchen.
I bow to McCutchen for all that he has accomplished in Pittsburgh - he was the key to resurrecting a dormant franchise - but I believe it is now time to consider shopping him. That said, I do start him nearly every game the rest of the season.
In using the rest of the season to prepare for next year I would do some of the moves mentioned today:
Tallion - skip 2 or 3 of his remaining 6 starts
Kuhl - similar to Tallion
Cole - limit him to 80 pitches or so, and don't ask him to throw 110 or so. Also skip 1 or 2 of his starts
Use some combo of Brault, Nova, Vogelsong and Hutchinson to take the other starts.
I give Williams some more quality time in the late innings based on last night.
Bell starts at least 5 and preferably 6 times per week, be it at first or in RF. Jaso sees little time.
Kang plays more, as long as he is healthy.
Frazier starts 2-3 times per week at some position and Hanson gets 2 starts per week at some position.
The players who lose playing time right now are Jaso, Rodriguez, Joyce and Cervelli. Give Cervelli some time to sit and heal and think about how he is being a dink. Rodgers only sees time as a PH.
Locke can take the hit in the pen (and on the field) whenever one of the young starters gives up too many runs in the early innings.
Quite a few of the Pirate players will not be back next year - Feliz, Nicassio, Joyce, Locke, Rodriguez, and Vogelsong at a minimum. And one of Fryer or Stewart will be gone as well. Unless the team suddenly rips off a 4+ game win streak, no reason for these folks to see any more time than needed.
Will wait to see what happens against the Reds.
I bow to McCutchen for all that he has accomplished in Pittsburgh - he was the key to resurrecting a dormant franchise - but I believe it is now time to consider shopping him. That said, I do start him nearly every game the rest of the season.
In using the rest of the season to prepare for next year I would do some of the moves mentioned today:
Tallion - skip 2 or 3 of his remaining 6 starts
Kuhl - similar to Tallion
Cole - limit him to 80 pitches or so, and don't ask him to throw 110 or so. Also skip 1 or 2 of his starts
Use some combo of Brault, Nova, Vogelsong and Hutchinson to take the other starts.
I give Williams some more quality time in the late innings based on last night.
Bell starts at least 5 and preferably 6 times per week, be it at first or in RF. Jaso sees little time.
Kang plays more, as long as he is healthy.
Frazier starts 2-3 times per week at some position and Hanson gets 2 starts per week at some position.
The players who lose playing time right now are Jaso, Rodriguez, Joyce and Cervelli. Give Cervelli some time to sit and heal and think about how he is being a dink. Rodgers only sees time as a PH.
Locke can take the hit in the pen (and on the field) whenever one of the young starters gives up too many runs in the early innings.
Quite a few of the Pirate players will not be back next year - Feliz, Nicassio, Joyce, Locke, Rodriguez, and Vogelsong at a minimum. And one of Fryer or Stewart will be gone as well. Unless the team suddenly rips off a 4+ game win streak, no reason for these folks to see any more time than needed.
Will wait to see what happens against the Reds.
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
4D464E4247465D181E695048414646074A46290 wrote: I always thought this team was built for 2017.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
Dog- as you point out 2017 was supposed to be Taillon's 3rd year. It'll be his first full season. Cole was supposed to be an ace. He's regressed this year. Liriano was supposed to be the veteran anchor and solid #2 in the rotation that we saw him be the last 2 years. He's gone.
To make this starting staff anywhere close to what we were expecting in 2017 Taillon will have to be as good as his potential without any sophomore setbacks, Cole will have to rebound as an ace and the Pirates will have to bring in a veteran starter that can be as good as Liriano was expected to be. That veteran starter with that kind of pedigree is not coming through free agency. There isn't anybody on that list that's a solid #2 starter. That means a trade would be the only way to get there unless we think that Searage's magic touch will have returned. This year's crop of failed or regressed reclamation projects Luebke, Nicasio, Lobstein, Caminero, Liriano, Niese gives me concerns that a lot of the previous success might have had something to do with Jim Benedict who now works for the Marlins.
Although the lineup has some solid core members we do have some question marks, not the least of which is Kang with his uncertain legal status. If this year's Cutch is what we get going forward we're going to be paying a large percentage of our precious payroll dollars to a guy who is not too much above average offensively and declining defensively. If Cervelli continues to be an empty .280 hitter with no better than average defense and JHay continues to give below average production that's 4 core players who have substantial issues.
And bullpen arms under the best of circumstances are a crap shoot. We'll be starting 2017 without the depth of arms or certainty of the past two seasons.
In short, it's possible all of this might work out with a healthy dose of luck, but if the Pirate management is counting business as usual and luck as key elements to make the 2017 season a winner then I'm betting with the house that the luck will even out good and bad, and we'll be back at around .500 next year.
I figured it would be Taillon's third year, Cole's fifth year, Liriano in his final year. That is a pretty good top three. Then you still have guys like Glasnow to be the mid-season call up.
The core of the line up is locked up too. McCutchen, Polanco, Marte and now Kang. I did expect Harrison/Walker to start at second. I didn't know the plan with Bell as I expected Alvarez to still be there.
2016 didn't pan out with the pitching. But there is no reason to blow up 2017. I think one veteran starter and some bullpen arms will solidify the team.
Dog- as you point out 2017 was supposed to be Taillon's 3rd year. It'll be his first full season. Cole was supposed to be an ace. He's regressed this year. Liriano was supposed to be the veteran anchor and solid #2 in the rotation that we saw him be the last 2 years. He's gone.
To make this starting staff anywhere close to what we were expecting in 2017 Taillon will have to be as good as his potential without any sophomore setbacks, Cole will have to rebound as an ace and the Pirates will have to bring in a veteran starter that can be as good as Liriano was expected to be. That veteran starter with that kind of pedigree is not coming through free agency. There isn't anybody on that list that's a solid #2 starter. That means a trade would be the only way to get there unless we think that Searage's magic touch will have returned. This year's crop of failed or regressed reclamation projects Luebke, Nicasio, Lobstein, Caminero, Liriano, Niese gives me concerns that a lot of the previous success might have had something to do with Jim Benedict who now works for the Marlins.
Although the lineup has some solid core members we do have some question marks, not the least of which is Kang with his uncertain legal status. If this year's Cutch is what we get going forward we're going to be paying a large percentage of our precious payroll dollars to a guy who is not too much above average offensively and declining defensively. If Cervelli continues to be an empty .280 hitter with no better than average defense and JHay continues to give below average production that's 4 core players who have substantial issues.
And bullpen arms under the best of circumstances are a crap shoot. We'll be starting 2017 without the depth of arms or certainty of the past two seasons.
In short, it's possible all of this might work out with a healthy dose of luck, but if the Pirate management is counting business as usual and luck as key elements to make the 2017 season a winner then I'm betting with the house that the luck will even out good and bad, and we'll be back at around .500 next year.
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
4E626A6D6641766070030 wrote: Out of the three outfielders, I hope that the team considers shopping McCutchen for young pitching this off-season. In July, I advocated contacting the Dodgers to see if they would consider a trade built around Urias - McCutchen.
I bow to McCutchen for all that he has accomplished in Pittsburgh - he was the key to resurrecting a dormant franchise - but I believe it is now time to consider shopping him. That said, I do start him nearly every game the rest of the season.
In using the rest of the season to prepare for next year I would do some of the moves mentioned today:
Tallion - skip 2 or 3 of his remaining 6 starts
Kuhl - similar to Tallion
Cole - limit him to 80 pitches or so, and don't ask him to throw 110 or so. Also skip 1 or 2 of his starts
Use some combo of Brault, Nova, Vogelsong and Hutchinson to take the other starts.
I give Williams some more quality time in the late innings based on last night.
Bell starts at least 5 and preferably 6 times per week, be it at first or in RF. Jaso sees little time.
Kang plays more, as long as he is healthy.
Frazier starts 2-3 times per week at some position and Hanson gets 2 starts per week at some position.
The players who lose playing time right now are Jaso, Rodriguez, Joyce and Cervelli. Give Cervelli some time to sit and heal and think about how he is being a dink. Rodgers only sees time as a PH.
Locke can take the hit in the pen (and on the field) whenever one of the young starters gives up too many runs in the early innings.
Quite a few of the Pirate players will not be back next year - Feliz, Nicassio, Joyce, Locke, Rodriguez, and Vogelsong at a minimum. And one of Fryer or Stewart will be gone as well. Unless the team suddenly rips off a 4+ game win streak, no reason for these folks to see any more time than needed.
Will wait to see what happens against the Reds.
I agree whole heartedly with everything you've said.
I bow to McCutchen for all that he has accomplished in Pittsburgh - he was the key to resurrecting a dormant franchise - but I believe it is now time to consider shopping him. That said, I do start him nearly every game the rest of the season.
In using the rest of the season to prepare for next year I would do some of the moves mentioned today:
Tallion - skip 2 or 3 of his remaining 6 starts
Kuhl - similar to Tallion
Cole - limit him to 80 pitches or so, and don't ask him to throw 110 or so. Also skip 1 or 2 of his starts
Use some combo of Brault, Nova, Vogelsong and Hutchinson to take the other starts.
I give Williams some more quality time in the late innings based on last night.
Bell starts at least 5 and preferably 6 times per week, be it at first or in RF. Jaso sees little time.
Kang plays more, as long as he is healthy.
Frazier starts 2-3 times per week at some position and Hanson gets 2 starts per week at some position.
The players who lose playing time right now are Jaso, Rodriguez, Joyce and Cervelli. Give Cervelli some time to sit and heal and think about how he is being a dink. Rodgers only sees time as a PH.
Locke can take the hit in the pen (and on the field) whenever one of the young starters gives up too many runs in the early innings.
Quite a few of the Pirate players will not be back next year - Feliz, Nicassio, Joyce, Locke, Rodriguez, and Vogelsong at a minimum. And one of Fryer or Stewart will be gone as well. Unless the team suddenly rips off a 4+ game win streak, no reason for these folks to see any more time than needed.
Will wait to see what happens against the Reds.
I agree whole heartedly with everything you've said.
Things the Bucs need to do now to prep for 2017
I don't understand what Hanson has done that warrants him being used. He's not a good AAA ballplayer.
Calling up guys who haven't succeeded in AAA just to see what they do makes no sense to me. You can see what they're doing vs AAA pitching, or AAA hitters and it's not much!
Calling up guys who haven't succeeded in AAA just to see what they do makes no sense to me. You can see what they're doing vs AAA pitching, or AAA hitters and it's not much!