6E4B48485D764B434156240 wrote: It seems to me that getting upset about the "intent" of the Pirates F.O. is really an exercise in futility. No one but Huntington, Coonelly, and Nutting knows what they intended to do with Cutch for the past week or so.
Regardless, the end result is Cutch is still a Pirate. Much like their claims that they wanted to re-sign Sean Rodriguez and A.J. Happ or that they were "interested" in David Price, or that they targeted Drew Hutchison, or that moving Neil Walker was motivated by a desire to acquire Jon Niese, the claim that they intended to keep Cutch all along will reveal itself as truth or fiction in what happens next.
One thing for sure, Huntington will have an easier time at Pirate Fest facing Bucco fans with Cutch still being with the team, and now he can claim that it was his "intent" all along to keep him. ::)
That is certainly true that having Cutch there will deflect scrutiny on NH. Got to tip the hat to Cutch for going to PirateFest given what has transpired over the last week.
Imagine if Bob Nutting would actually show up to answer questions. Now that would be worth the price of admission
Is Nutting not going to be there? He has been there years past answering questions.
Ask Management is from 4-5 PM on Saturday and 1-2 PM on Sunday.
Show up, ask a question. The fans usually whimp out in asking those tough questions. Oh yeah, the Pirates are so cheap they made the admission Free to get in too.
NH-Spin Doctor!
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
NH-Spin Doctor!
3338303C3938236660172E363F3838793438570 wrote: It seems to me that getting upset about the "intent" of the Pirates F.O. is really an exercise in futility. No one but Huntington, Coonelly, and Nutting knows what they intended to do with Cutch for the past week or so.
Regardless, the end result is Cutch is still a Pirate. Much like their claims that they wanted to re-sign Sean Rodriguez and A.J. Happ or that they were "interested" in David Price, or that they targeted Drew Hutchison, or that moving Neil Walker was motivated by a desire to acquire Jon Niese, the claim that they intended to keep Cutch all along will reveal itself as truth or fiction in what happens next.
One thing for sure, Huntington will have an easier time at Pirate Fest facing Bucco fans with Cutch still being with the team, and now he can claim that it was his "intent" all along to keep him. ::)
That is certainly true that having Cutch there will deflect scrutiny on NH. Got to tip the hat to Cutch for going to PirateFest given what has transpired over the last week.
Imagine if Bob Nutting would actually show up to answer questions. Now that would be worth the price of admission
Is Nutting not going to be there? He has been there years past answering questions.
Ask Management is from 4-5 PM on Saturday and 1-2 PM on Sunday.
Show up, ask a question. The fans usually whimp out in asking those tough questions. Oh yeah, the Pirates are so cheap they made the admission Free to get in too.
I have not seen Bob there in several years. Maybe he's been at different days. Neal, Frank, and Clint algae been at every Q&A.
But I do think the tone will be very different this year at the Q&A.
Regardless, the end result is Cutch is still a Pirate. Much like their claims that they wanted to re-sign Sean Rodriguez and A.J. Happ or that they were "interested" in David Price, or that they targeted Drew Hutchison, or that moving Neil Walker was motivated by a desire to acquire Jon Niese, the claim that they intended to keep Cutch all along will reveal itself as truth or fiction in what happens next.
One thing for sure, Huntington will have an easier time at Pirate Fest facing Bucco fans with Cutch still being with the team, and now he can claim that it was his "intent" all along to keep him. ::)
That is certainly true that having Cutch there will deflect scrutiny on NH. Got to tip the hat to Cutch for going to PirateFest given what has transpired over the last week.
Imagine if Bob Nutting would actually show up to answer questions. Now that would be worth the price of admission
Is Nutting not going to be there? He has been there years past answering questions.
Ask Management is from 4-5 PM on Saturday and 1-2 PM on Sunday.
Show up, ask a question. The fans usually whimp out in asking those tough questions. Oh yeah, the Pirates are so cheap they made the admission Free to get in too.
I have not seen Bob there in several years. Maybe he's been at different days. Neal, Frank, and Clint algae been at every Q&A.
But I do think the tone will be very different this year at the Q&A.
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rucker59@gmail.com
NH-Spin Doctor!
6C676F6366677C393F487169606767266B67080 wrote: It's almost like people don't know why they're angry, or who they're angry at. But they know that they're angry. A seamless transition from the 2016 election to MLB.
This maybe true, but I don't think anyone can shift blame to longtime Pirate fans. At a minimum this week was filled with a lot of rumors. What's actually true or not true will never be known to any of us. After listening to the rumors and with the facts we do have in hand I'd say there are probably a lot of folks feeling frustrated like Jolly Rodger. Unfortunately the FO has created this situation, not fans.
A similar example: when the Pirates acquired Drew Hutchinson the first reaction by me and most was "salary dump". Then Neal explained (more or less) that his interest was always in Hutchinson. For about 2 days I accepted this. Then I turned my brain on and it was all "hey, wait a minute".
It's just true - a lot of people, maybe Jolly Rodger, simply don't believe the FO any more. It's up to the FO to earn trust back.
You are still assuming a lie if you are saying they have to "earn trust back". Maybe they didn't lie at all?
I actually asked when Liriano was dealt that maybe it was a one to one deal but then Toronto asked for another player. In order for that to happen, Huntington said they had to take Liriano too. People laughed when I said that. Then Huntington came out and said that and people still didn't believe him.
People just don't like the front office and feel they haven't done enough. They will always be against the front office until they win a World Series (or not win it again after they did win one).
I give the front office the benefit of the doubt for turning things around. For making the playoffs three years in a row. Yeah, I want more. I wasn't happy with the 2016 off season or season. I understand that pain. But to think they are always lying blows my mind. They just can't win. Someone is complaining because they countered offered, wanted more for their star player??? Come on...that is a stretch to me.
I certainly remember your account and gave you credit for your position once Neal spoke out. At first that claimed me down. Then I started thinking. And soon I realized one of two things had to be true: 1) maybe Neal was shooting straight, but if so it was and will always be one of the all time off-the-charts bad trades; or 2) Neal had to cover an obvious salary dump and this is the story we got.
I don't think Neal Huntington is as incompetent as this trade makes him out to be. No way. I just don't. Does that mean I think he's a liar? It means that I think he's a good and loyal employee of the guy signing his checks doing what he was instructed to, all wrapped around enough "truth" to give him cover.
And I'm not one of the fans that dislike Neal or Frank (or even Nutting - I give Nutting a lot of credit for turning this organization around, but I do not believe he's kept his word about winning a championship). I think both Neal and Frank are top-notch men and good baseball men. I have no doubt, none, that Neal also wishes he had more $$$....
This maybe true, but I don't think anyone can shift blame to longtime Pirate fans. At a minimum this week was filled with a lot of rumors. What's actually true or not true will never be known to any of us. After listening to the rumors and with the facts we do have in hand I'd say there are probably a lot of folks feeling frustrated like Jolly Rodger. Unfortunately the FO has created this situation, not fans.
A similar example: when the Pirates acquired Drew Hutchinson the first reaction by me and most was "salary dump". Then Neal explained (more or less) that his interest was always in Hutchinson. For about 2 days I accepted this. Then I turned my brain on and it was all "hey, wait a minute".
It's just true - a lot of people, maybe Jolly Rodger, simply don't believe the FO any more. It's up to the FO to earn trust back.
You are still assuming a lie if you are saying they have to "earn trust back". Maybe they didn't lie at all?
I actually asked when Liriano was dealt that maybe it was a one to one deal but then Toronto asked for another player. In order for that to happen, Huntington said they had to take Liriano too. People laughed when I said that. Then Huntington came out and said that and people still didn't believe him.
People just don't like the front office and feel they haven't done enough. They will always be against the front office until they win a World Series (or not win it again after they did win one).
I give the front office the benefit of the doubt for turning things around. For making the playoffs three years in a row. Yeah, I want more. I wasn't happy with the 2016 off season or season. I understand that pain. But to think they are always lying blows my mind. They just can't win. Someone is complaining because they countered offered, wanted more for their star player??? Come on...that is a stretch to me.
I certainly remember your account and gave you credit for your position once Neal spoke out. At first that claimed me down. Then I started thinking. And soon I realized one of two things had to be true: 1) maybe Neal was shooting straight, but if so it was and will always be one of the all time off-the-charts bad trades; or 2) Neal had to cover an obvious salary dump and this is the story we got.
I don't think Neal Huntington is as incompetent as this trade makes him out to be. No way. I just don't. Does that mean I think he's a liar? It means that I think he's a good and loyal employee of the guy signing his checks doing what he was instructed to, all wrapped around enough "truth" to give him cover.
And I'm not one of the fans that dislike Neal or Frank (or even Nutting - I give Nutting a lot of credit for turning this organization around, but I do not believe he's kept his word about winning a championship). I think both Neal and Frank are top-notch men and good baseball men. I have no doubt, none, that Neal also wishes he had more $$$....
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rucker59@gmail.com
NH-Spin Doctor!
002526263318252D2F384A0 wrote: It's almost like people don't know why they're angry, or who they're angry at. But they know that they're angry. A seamless transition from the 2016 election to MLB.
This maybe true, but I don't think anyone can shift blame to longtime Pirate fans. At a minimum this week was filled with a lot of rumors. What's actually true or not true will never be known to any of us. After listening to the rumors and with the facts we do have in hand I'd say there are probably a lot of folks feeling frustrated like Jolly Rodger. Unfortunately the FO has created this situation, not fans.
A similar example: when the Pirates acquired Drew Hutchinson the first reaction by me and most was "salary dump". Then Neal explained (more or less) that his interest was always in Hutchinson. For about 2 days I accepted this. Then I turned my brain on and it was all "hey, wait a minute".
It's just true - a lot of people, maybe Jolly Rodger, simply don't believe the FO any more. It's up to the FO to earn trust back.
VA- We are usually on the same page here. I will admit to being a Nutting basher and will continue to be one until he backs up words with action. Until then I can only hope that one day an owner such as Mark Cuban rescues this Franchise.
However with regards to NH and FC I have always given them the benefit of the doubt as I believe they are not given sufficient resources to be consistently successful.
But recently going back to the Liriano debacle and now with this Cutch episode I have become very frustrated with the FO because I am hearing a lot of double talk. If you want to eliminate some of the frustration then just be honest with the fans. There does not seem to be a plan
What a mess. First you trade your closer(Btw: I thought the return was good) which I think led the team to believe that the FO punted on the season. Hence the "body language" comments.
Then the Liriano debacle.
No mention of offers being made to Sean Rodriguez and Matt Joyce thereby weakening a bench that was a strongpoint.
Now the Cutch debacle which will I believe affect team chemistry.
And that is the point of my post - you've never been a cynic of this FO, to my recollection. I never was. But all of this is affecting me, and I see it affecting others. Even Paul Z of the PG has given the FO the benefit of doubt. But his article today and comments from otherwise on-board Pirate fans lead me to believe many are becoming frustrated. And IMHO, this was bound to happen starting last winter.
I'll state again - I don't think any long term Pirate fan, watching the Cutch era crawl to a close, can be blamed.
This maybe true, but I don't think anyone can shift blame to longtime Pirate fans. At a minimum this week was filled with a lot of rumors. What's actually true or not true will never be known to any of us. After listening to the rumors and with the facts we do have in hand I'd say there are probably a lot of folks feeling frustrated like Jolly Rodger. Unfortunately the FO has created this situation, not fans.
A similar example: when the Pirates acquired Drew Hutchinson the first reaction by me and most was "salary dump". Then Neal explained (more or less) that his interest was always in Hutchinson. For about 2 days I accepted this. Then I turned my brain on and it was all "hey, wait a minute".
It's just true - a lot of people, maybe Jolly Rodger, simply don't believe the FO any more. It's up to the FO to earn trust back.
VA- We are usually on the same page here. I will admit to being a Nutting basher and will continue to be one until he backs up words with action. Until then I can only hope that one day an owner such as Mark Cuban rescues this Franchise.
However with regards to NH and FC I have always given them the benefit of the doubt as I believe they are not given sufficient resources to be consistently successful.
But recently going back to the Liriano debacle and now with this Cutch episode I have become very frustrated with the FO because I am hearing a lot of double talk. If you want to eliminate some of the frustration then just be honest with the fans. There does not seem to be a plan
What a mess. First you trade your closer(Btw: I thought the return was good) which I think led the team to believe that the FO punted on the season. Hence the "body language" comments.
Then the Liriano debacle.
No mention of offers being made to Sean Rodriguez and Matt Joyce thereby weakening a bench that was a strongpoint.
Now the Cutch debacle which will I believe affect team chemistry.
And that is the point of my post - you've never been a cynic of this FO, to my recollection. I never was. But all of this is affecting me, and I see it affecting others. Even Paul Z of the PG has given the FO the benefit of doubt. But his article today and comments from otherwise on-board Pirate fans lead me to believe many are becoming frustrated. And IMHO, this was bound to happen starting last winter.
I'll state again - I don't think any long term Pirate fan, watching the Cutch era crawl to a close, can be blamed.
NH-Spin Doctor!
0B2E2D2D38132E262433410 wrote:
Now the Cutch debacle which will I believe affect team chemistry.
What chemistry? It looked to me that they had none of that so-called chemistry stuff last season.
I think the chemistry took a hit after the Melanson trade. Other posters have noted the change in body language with some of the players and with Hurdle
There was a lot of that before Melancon was traded. That was not a good baseball teams after the swing inOakland.
Now the Cutch debacle which will I believe affect team chemistry.
What chemistry? It looked to me that they had none of that so-called chemistry stuff last season.
I think the chemistry took a hit after the Melanson trade. Other posters have noted the change in body language with some of the players and with Hurdle
There was a lot of that before Melancon was traded. That was not a good baseball teams after the swing inOakland.
NH-Spin Doctor!
7B5E5D5D48635E565443310 wrote: So, it is bad to hear offers and then counter offer?
I expected this negativity either way. Huntington couldn't pull off a trade: Loser. Huntington traded McCutchen: Salary Dump. No win situation for Huntington and the Pirates.
No it is not bad to hear an offer and then counter offer if you are actively shopping the asset. If you are countering then you are
Actively engaged and taking some initiative to make a deal. My problem is with NH stating after the fact that they never planned to move him and were only listening to offers.
I don't have any problem with what NH said. It would be stupid to not listen to offers and try to get more even if you aren't trying to trade someone. If you were to tell me that Nats offered Giolito, Robles, and Lopez for Cutch, I would be stupid to not take that deal even if I wasn't planning on trading him. It is all about perspective and what side of the coin you are on.
I expected this negativity either way. Huntington couldn't pull off a trade: Loser. Huntington traded McCutchen: Salary Dump. No win situation for Huntington and the Pirates.
No it is not bad to hear an offer and then counter offer if you are actively shopping the asset. If you are countering then you are
Actively engaged and taking some initiative to make a deal. My problem is with NH stating after the fact that they never planned to move him and were only listening to offers.
I don't have any problem with what NH said. It would be stupid to not listen to offers and try to get more even if you aren't trying to trade someone. If you were to tell me that Nats offered Giolito, Robles, and Lopez for Cutch, I would be stupid to not take that deal even if I wasn't planning on trading him. It is all about perspective and what side of the coin you are on.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
NH-Spin Doctor!
But if Huntington countered and said "throw in Gio" or "throw in Harper" that means he is actively trying to trade McCutchen.
Huntington would be stupid not to counter and ask for more. Especially, if the intent was not to trade him.
Huntington would be stupid not to counter and ask for more. Especially, if the intent was not to trade him.
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Speedloader88
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NH-Spin Doctor!
"If" I believed that there was little intent to move #22 unless someone blew them away with an offer, then I would have to believe that them fielding offers was a solid strategy. I also believe that would be a good strategy. My problem is that they were so public with their comments. Huntington and Hurdle threw gasoline on the flame regarding #22 being traded and did little to calm the seas. Their public strategy was more a message that said, "He is for sale"! That fanned the flames and would have been their best (not our best) strategy if they actually offloaded him as a salary dump. Now it appears that they had a decent strategy of listening to offers and holding out for max return. When max return was not met, they held. I like it! What I don't like is that their message was incongruent with their strategy. Now they appear to have "lost".
To summarize. Good strategy plus bad messaging has led to the appearance of a failed attempt to move him. A better message or no message along with that strategy would equal very competent and sound leadership.
To summarize. Good strategy plus bad messaging has led to the appearance of a failed attempt to move him. A better message or no message along with that strategy would equal very competent and sound leadership.
NH-Spin Doctor!
3D363E3237362D686E192038313636773A36590 wrote: But if Huntington countered and said "throw in Gio" or "throw in Harper" that means he is actively trying to trade McCutchen.
Huntington would be stupid not to counter and ask for more. Especially, if the intent was not to trade him.
I don't think you want to alienate one of the other GMs by asking for a stupid demand.
And to be clear, NH said he didn't intend to deal McCutchen. I have gone on bike rides intending to ride 30 miles. I felt good and decided to ride 50. I've gone to the store not intending to buy "XYZ." Got there and the deal was too good so I bought it.
Even if he didn't intend to trade McCutchen, if someone throws a good deal at you, you take it. You don't raise the stake to an insane level just cause you didn't intend on trading him.
If he was offered the same trade that the Sox got for Eaton and he declined, I would be disappointed.
Huntington would be stupid not to counter and ask for more. Especially, if the intent was not to trade him.
I don't think you want to alienate one of the other GMs by asking for a stupid demand.
And to be clear, NH said he didn't intend to deal McCutchen. I have gone on bike rides intending to ride 30 miles. I felt good and decided to ride 50. I've gone to the store not intending to buy "XYZ." Got there and the deal was too good so I bought it.
Even if he didn't intend to trade McCutchen, if someone throws a good deal at you, you take it. You don't raise the stake to an insane level just cause you didn't intend on trading him.
If he was offered the same trade that the Sox got for Eaton and he declined, I would be disappointed.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
NH-Spin Doctor!
I think you get my point. I know Harper would be extreme, but it was just an example. Yes, I agree with you about seeing something you like and you buy it. Hopefully, we will find out what was turned down by Huntington or what he was asking for in return. But I would rather have McCutchen. They need a pitcher and this team can be very good again.