736E4A4846230 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Come on PMike you’re better than that! The self imposed parameters is another way of saying they need to catch lightening in a bottle to contend. How does that equate to trying to win. The bottom line is that the average ML Payroll is over $150M. The Ownership gives NH a budget of 100M to “try to win”. Yet ownership has the financial where with all to fund an average ML Payroll which would enhance the ability to contend. Sorry but when a business owner is not willing to invest in his company to grow it will become stagnant just as the Pirates will become without the infusion of additional capital.
Frank Coonelly
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Frank Coonelly
557875646372652526170 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
Frank Coonelly
2A0F0C0C19320F070512600 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Come on PMike you’re better than that! The self imposed parameters is another way of saying they need to catch lightening in a bottle to contend. How does that equate to trying to win. The bottom line is that the average ML Payroll is over $150M. The Ownership gives NH a budget of 100M to “try to win”. Yet ownership has the financial where with all to fund an average ML Payroll which would enhance the ability to contend. Sorry but when a business owner is not willing to invest in his company to grow it will become stagnant just as the Pirates will become without the infusion of additional capital.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Just like every other Pirates fan who draws breath, it is a farce that they don't spend more on payroll and it is a mockery of the paying public when they suggest otherwise. But as I wrote in the post above this one, they have been successful with these limits. That success, I'll bet, makes them think they can (easily?) do it again.
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Come on PMike you’re better than that! The self imposed parameters is another way of saying they need to catch lightening in a bottle to contend. How does that equate to trying to win. The bottom line is that the average ML Payroll is over $150M. The Ownership gives NH a budget of 100M to “try to win”. Yet ownership has the financial where with all to fund an average ML Payroll which would enhance the ability to contend. Sorry but when a business owner is not willing to invest in his company to grow it will become stagnant just as the Pirates will become without the infusion of additional capital.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Just like every other Pirates fan who draws breath, it is a farce that they don't spend more on payroll and it is a mockery of the paying public when they suggest otherwise. But as I wrote in the post above this one, they have been successful with these limits. That success, I'll bet, makes them think they can (easily?) do it again.
Frank Coonelly
15082C2E20450 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
there is no reason to think that they did a great job of taking advantage of some things that other teams didn't know about yet (analytics). Unfortunately other teams caught on quickly (pitch framing and shifts for example). It can even be speculated that the Bucs were behind on the change in launch angles and power. There is no reason to think they are going to outsmart other teams.
there lack of success in draft and Latin America puts them behind the eight ball.
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
there is no reason to think that they did a great job of taking advantage of some things that other teams didn't know about yet (analytics). Unfortunately other teams caught on quickly (pitch framing and shifts for example). It can even be speculated that the Bucs were behind on the change in launch angles and power. There is no reason to think they are going to outsmart other teams.
there lack of success in draft and Latin America puts them behind the eight ball.
Frank Coonelly
6E48495E48582B0 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
there is no reason to think that they did a great job of taking advantage of some things that other teams didn't know about yet (analytics). Unfortunately other teams caught on quickly (pitch framing and shifts for example). It can even be speculated that the Bucs were behind on the change in launch angles and power. There is no reason to think they are going to outsmart other teams.
there lack of success in draft and Latin America puts them behind the eight ball.
Agreed. Coonelly/Nutting did exploit some market inefficiencies that helped the team. But now everybody is using them. Including teams with money.
There's a reason no one mentions moneyball any more. It became the industry standard.
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
there is no reason to think that they did a great job of taking advantage of some things that other teams didn't know about yet (analytics). Unfortunately other teams caught on quickly (pitch framing and shifts for example). It can even be speculated that the Bucs were behind on the change in launch angles and power. There is no reason to think they are going to outsmart other teams.
there lack of success in draft and Latin America puts them behind the eight ball.
Agreed. Coonelly/Nutting did exploit some market inefficiencies that helped the team. But now everybody is using them. Including teams with money.
There's a reason no one mentions moneyball any more. It became the industry standard.
-
Bobster21
Frank Coonelly
332E0A0806630 wrote: The arrogance this management team shows is amazing...
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
Teams that commit to winning build upon a good effort. The Pirates had 3 winning seasons. They fell short in the post season but a good effort had been made to play winning, competitive baseball. The pieces were in place to build on that in order to enhance the effort to win a championship. The low payroll combined with record attendance afforded the opportunity to add a few missing key pieces (a solid starting pitcher and a 1Bman). Instead, the BMTIB decided they were satisfied to have been competitive and began to trash the effort. Happ and Walker weren't retained. Vogelsong and Niese were obtained. The 1B job went to a journeyman catcher (Jaso). These were head scratching moves; not the sort a contender makes. That's the FO effort that began a slide that got us where we are today. That's the effort Coonelly & Co tells us represents their commitment to the fans.
So if we are to be encouraged by the previous effort, what exactly should we expect? All they have demonstrated is the ability to have several winning seasons with limited success before they dismantle the effort rather than spend even an average amount to achieve the level of success they tell us they are committed to achieving. I'm not at all encouraged by what I saw in 2013-15. Rather, what they proved is that they are satisfied with partial success and will not budge from their inadequate budget to take the next step. In the not too distant future we may see a team that wins more than it loses, is in contention and even makes a WC game. A team that, because of the budget, is just a few players short of being able to make a big post season splash. And we'll have to be satisfied with that because that's the extent of the commitment to win.
this is the kind of stuff that will keep me away most of the time. we fans are not fools. they are not committed to winning, no way to sugar coat a sh** pie!
I'm not picking on you specifically LumberCompany, but on the cliches that you used.
This stuff will keep you away? I'll be darned if some BS language from the FO will keep me from being a fan of baseball/Pittsburgh baseball. I will not let them have that sort of power over me.
I'm also tired of the line, "they are not committed to winning." That line is exhausting and ridiculously untrue. They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win. If they were not trying to win, it would have been much smarter to keep the poorly producing yet ever popular Cole and McCutchen the whole way until their contracts ran out and the lost them to free agency gaining nothing in return. The fan base wouldn't be so upset right now. More people in the seats and more money in the coffers. Most obviously, winning would make their jobs a whole lot easier. To suggest that they don't want to win is just silly.
Lumber Co didn't say they don't want to win. He said they aren't committed to winning. This very much consistent with your comment that, "They may not be willing to raise the payroll to a level that we all feel is necessary, but within the self imposed perimeters, they are definitely trying to win." I have often said the same thing. I have no doubt they want to win. But they will only make a commitment toward that end to the extent of their self-imposed financial parameters. Which isn't much of a commitment at all. Nutting wants to win but only on a shoestring budget. Huntington wants to assemble a winning team but only within the confines of that budget. The fans can see it doesn't work and it wouldn't take much more in spending to get where they want to be. Adding 1 or 2 key players. Or holding onto the players they have rather than dealing them before they can walk because there's no way the Bucs would pony up to re-sign them. I can say I sincerely want to win the lottery. I'm just not willing to buy a lot of tickets. Nutting wants to win. Of course he would prefer that to losing. He just won't spend what it takes.
Good distinction. The problem with all of this lies in the reality that they did it once already. They have already won (and won a lot of games) on a shoestring budget. Those three years are the thing that will give Nutting the belief that it can be recaptured. It will give him confidence in NH and FC that they can do it again. Seriously, winning during those three years may have been the worst thing for the long term hope of the franchise.
Or, they do actually find away to do it again. In the lottery, you don't need to buy a lot of tickets. All you need is the right one. The analogy isn't perfect, but again, they were already successful once using this strategy.
Teams that commit to winning build upon a good effort. The Pirates had 3 winning seasons. They fell short in the post season but a good effort had been made to play winning, competitive baseball. The pieces were in place to build on that in order to enhance the effort to win a championship. The low payroll combined with record attendance afforded the opportunity to add a few missing key pieces (a solid starting pitcher and a 1Bman). Instead, the BMTIB decided they were satisfied to have been competitive and began to trash the effort. Happ and Walker weren't retained. Vogelsong and Niese were obtained. The 1B job went to a journeyman catcher (Jaso). These were head scratching moves; not the sort a contender makes. That's the FO effort that began a slide that got us where we are today. That's the effort Coonelly & Co tells us represents their commitment to the fans.
So if we are to be encouraged by the previous effort, what exactly should we expect? All they have demonstrated is the ability to have several winning seasons with limited success before they dismantle the effort rather than spend even an average amount to achieve the level of success they tell us they are committed to achieving. I'm not at all encouraged by what I saw in 2013-15. Rather, what they proved is that they are satisfied with partial success and will not budge from their inadequate budget to take the next step. In the not too distant future we may see a team that wins more than it loses, is in contention and even makes a WC game. A team that, because of the budget, is just a few players short of being able to make a big post season splash. And we'll have to be satisfied with that because that's the extent of the commitment to win.