What about the lineup?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What about the lineup?
Today is anniversary of Bucs signing Ryan Vogelsong (December 18.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
Taillon and Glasnow were not the plan. Just Taillon was the plan. Glasnow had some starts based on desperation. Taillon was called up to stay.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote: Taillon and Glasnow were not the plan. Just Taillon was the plan. Glasnow had some starts based on desperation. Taillon was called up to stay.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
212630383621666A13343E323A3F7D303C3E530 wrote: Taillon and Glasnow were not the plan. Just Taillon was the plan. Glasnow had some starts based on desperation. Taillon was called up to stay.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
Yet. They haven't done it yet.
Not many teams have a one, two punch like Cole and Taillion. Yes, they need to add to them. But you are acting like the offseason is over. It is far from over. We also don't know what was offered and what was turned down on some trades. Many teams make bad trades too.
I am not worried right now. There is plenty of time to make this team better. The players who were lost can be easily replaced. I'm certainly not mad about not having Liriano either.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
Yet. They haven't done it yet.
Not many teams have a one, two punch like Cole and Taillion. Yes, they need to add to them. But you are acting like the offseason is over. It is far from over. We also don't know what was offered and what was turned down on some trades. Many teams make bad trades too.
I am not worried right now. There is plenty of time to make this team better. The players who were lost can be easily replaced. I'm certainly not mad about not having Liriano either.
What about the lineup?
6545564B4A240 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. No question that great fault lies in thinking Vogelsong and Locke should be part of the solution in the rotation last year. I also agree that at this point, it looks like the same plan. I have felt like everyone on this board, myself included, is frustrated with that plan.
I would also say that there is no FA solutions that would make me change my mind on that opinion. The only way they can actually make a legit upgrade on this staff is by making a trade. As you and others have pointed out, they have the chips to make that happen.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. No question that great fault lies in thinking Vogelsong and Locke should be part of the solution in the rotation last year. I also agree that at this point, it looks like the same plan. I have felt like everyone on this board, myself included, is frustrated with that plan.
I would also say that there is no FA solutions that would make me change my mind on that opinion. The only way they can actually make a legit upgrade on this staff is by making a trade. As you and others have pointed out, they have the chips to make that happen.
What about the lineup?
302D090B05600 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. No question that great fault lies in thinking Vogelsong and Locke should be part of the solution in the rotation last year. I also agree that at this point, it looks like the same plan. I have felt like everyone on this board, myself included, is frustrated with that plan.
I would also say that there is no FA solutions that would make me change my mind on that opinion. The only way they can actually make a legit upgrade on this staff is by making a trade. As you and others have pointed out, they have the chips to make that happen.
Keep in mind.....the SP issue isn't isolated to this year. They entered last off season with a need an failed to address it then. So the Pirates are to blame for backing themselves into a corner and having to look at this year's crop of FA and trying to claim there are not many options.
Also keep in mind....last year we were told they weren't going to upgrade the pitching because it was a bridge year. Yet here we are again.....
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. No question that great fault lies in thinking Vogelsong and Locke should be part of the solution in the rotation last year. I also agree that at this point, it looks like the same plan. I have felt like everyone on this board, myself included, is frustrated with that plan.
I would also say that there is no FA solutions that would make me change my mind on that opinion. The only way they can actually make a legit upgrade on this staff is by making a trade. As you and others have pointed out, they have the chips to make that happen.
Keep in mind.....the SP issue isn't isolated to this year. They entered last off season with a need an failed to address it then. So the Pirates are to blame for backing themselves into a corner and having to look at this year's crop of FA and trying to claim there are not many options.
Also keep in mind....last year we were told they weren't going to upgrade the pitching because it was a bridge year. Yet here we are again.....
-
rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
565D55595C5D460305724B535A5D5D1C515D320 wrote: Taillon and Glasnow were not the plan. Just Taillon was the plan. Glasnow had some starts based on desperation. Taillon was called up to stay.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
Yet. They haven't done it yet.
Not many teams have a one, two punch like Cole and Taillion. Yes, they need to add to them. But you are acting like the offseason is over. It is far from over. We also don't know what was offered and what was turned down on some trades. Many teams make bad trades too.
I am not worried right now. There is plenty of time to make this team better. The players who were lost can be easily replaced. I'm certainly not mad about not having Liriano either.
Okay, the opening roster has yet to be written for 2017. I would love nothing more to wake up tomorrow and discover Neal has worked up a critical move for the 2017 team. We'll see which way it goes; 3 1/2 months left.
But the point is already proven because of last year. Nothing. It was about this time that Charlie was traded. I was sure that was the beginning of a big move by the Pirates. Nothing. If (IF) Forbes is basically correct on profit, I find it really rotten they could not spring for a much better solution.
I think Taillon is going to be a stud. I think he will be better than Cole too. Taillon isn't just another young rookie in my opinion. He is a long time fixture at the top of the rotation.
Dog - the evidence is now in the open: their words and their actions have not matched up. It's no longer a question of whether the Pirates need zero, one, two or whatever SP, the simple reality is that the Pirates are like every other team in MLB - they can get better in numerous ways and it should be the FOs obligation to simply get better within the limitations of their business reality. They have not done so.
There are a couple teams that don't have a great need for pitching, like the Nats and Red Sox, but they both went hard after Sale. Why? They certainly don't "need" him. They doing it to build the best team they can. The Pirates are not trying to build the best team they could. They're simply content to do the minimum.
If that doesn't bother you that's ok. But this reality can no longer be denied.
Yet. They haven't done it yet.
Not many teams have a one, two punch like Cole and Taillion. Yes, they need to add to them. But you are acting like the offseason is over. It is far from over. We also don't know what was offered and what was turned down on some trades. Many teams make bad trades too.
I am not worried right now. There is plenty of time to make this team better. The players who were lost can be easily replaced. I'm certainly not mad about not having Liriano either.
Okay, the opening roster has yet to be written for 2017. I would love nothing more to wake up tomorrow and discover Neal has worked up a critical move for the 2017 team. We'll see which way it goes; 3 1/2 months left.
But the point is already proven because of last year. Nothing. It was about this time that Charlie was traded. I was sure that was the beginning of a big move by the Pirates. Nothing. If (IF) Forbes is basically correct on profit, I find it really rotten they could not spring for a much better solution.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
624445524454270 wrote: Today is anniversary of Bucs signing Ryan Vogelsong (December 18.
I've come to fully expect Ryan back with the Pirates in 2017....
Seriously. I think he'll be 1 of 2 added.
I've come to fully expect Ryan back with the Pirates in 2017....
Seriously. I think he'll be 1 of 2 added.
What about the lineup?
MLBTR is reporting that the Marlins have no likely left-handed relievers on their staff. While they could go with all right handers, that doesn't seem likely. Do they have anyone (realistic for them to trade) we could use to fill a hole?
What about the lineup?
76746E687E1B0 wrote: MLBTR is reporting that the Marlins have no likely left-handed relievers on their staff. While they could go with all right handers, that doesn't seem likely. Do they have anyone (realistic for them to trade) we could use to fill a hole?
Jose Fernandez
Too Soon?
Jose Fernandez
Too Soon?