6B60686461607B3E384F766E676060216C600F0 wrote: You are right. I don't know what you are talking about. I am not way off base saying Liriano, Burnett, Cervelli and Kang were huge impacts to the 2015 team that had the second best record in all of baseball. Liriano was still a top free agent in 2015. I am not sure why you think he was a "reclamation project" or why that even matters. He was a very good pitcher. Burnett had his best ERA of his career in 2015 too.
Trades at the deadline were not Byrd and Morneau. They were Happ and Soria, who also made very big impacts. Just because you didn't like the trades doesn't mean they didn't produce. They did produce. Huntington was right. But of course, when Huntington is right it is because he is lucky. Were you unlucky in not liking those trades?
Again, I am not a fool knowing the team won 98 games. To put that in perspective, only one NL team and two in the AL won more games last year. Yes, they went for it in 2015. If they weren't going for it, why did they make any of those moves?
Oh yeah, Cueto was pretty bad for the Royals He wasn't resigned when he hit free agency. Shields walked in 2015 and wasn't part of their WS team.
You are not a fool.....more like an oblivious apologist.....the team got lucky to ever win 98 games. Cast-offs and reclamation projects are the equivalent to counting on the lottery for retirement.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Brewers Interested in Yelich
That's it. Now I get it.
When things go good, it is all luck.
When things go bad, they are stupid moves.
Thank you!
When things go good, it is all luck.
When things go bad, they are stupid moves.
Thank you!
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Bobster21
Brewers Interested in Yelich
To be fair, Liriano was a significant FA signing in 12/14. He was certainly a reclamation project when signed in 2013 but turned out to be valuable, winning 16 games in 2013 and despite a 7-10 record in 2014, had an ERA of 3.38, had more KS (175) than IP (162) and far fewer hits (130) than IP. Having resurrected his career and still just 31, they needed him for the 2015 season and managed to re-sign him. And that was another good year for him before things began to go sour.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
1808093E2828244B0 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents. Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time. Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else. Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher. It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously. They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.
If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you. Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.
Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it? But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it? I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.
Let me try it a different way and see if this makes sense: I'd have ZERO issue with this IF Neal had said the Pirates are rebuilding 2018 and 19. He didn't; he explicitly rejected this idea. He explicitly said the Pirates are in this to compete. He has plenty of flexibility to add on right now.
There has not been a single better opportunity to significantly improve the team since AJ walked into Neal's office and offered to play for $5M.
Further, Neal let a division rival walk in and improve itself.
All this represents the very opposite of competing. So here's the deal: said a few weeks back we'd find out if Neal was telling the truth or lying. It's not so much about what they did, its about what they "promised" and once again lied about. The only thing we're competing for is last place in the division.
Does that change the prospective?
I hate being lied to.....
No one likes to be lied to. Many think they always lie. But now they are believed? All GMs give the fans hope. Did you watch the Winter Meetings? They all said the same thing.
Huntington is pretty careful in his wording. He did emphasize how this team will compete, will show up and give 100% every day. You can look at that as meaning giving it their all game in and game out. Or you can look at it as competing to make the playoffs.
I don't get too caught up in words. Actions speak louder to me. Trading Cole and McCutchen was the sign to me that they are rebuilding, even if they didn't actually say that. Though, Huntington did mention "three years from now".
I am not sure what this has to do with the conversation in hand about "going for it".
NH's version of competing is showing up every day. It has nothing to do with results. This team that he is trying to sell as one that will compete will be one of the worst team in MLB. That isn't fielding a competitive team. What changes three years from now? What significant pieces are brought in to help this roster? Do tell. You will have a new catcher - probably a bottom of the barrel type. Rivero will be long gone. Marte and Polanco will still be enigma's and I haven't even touched on the starting rotation.
Lesson ... don't try to sell to a fan base that this team will be competitive in 2018. Fans have a different idea of what the term competitive means. And don't say in three years ...
well by this definition of competing any time a game is played the team is competitive. Which makes the words meaningless.
The Pirates sell hope and nothing else.
If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you. Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.
Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it? But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it? I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.
Let me try it a different way and see if this makes sense: I'd have ZERO issue with this IF Neal had said the Pirates are rebuilding 2018 and 19. He didn't; he explicitly rejected this idea. He explicitly said the Pirates are in this to compete. He has plenty of flexibility to add on right now.
There has not been a single better opportunity to significantly improve the team since AJ walked into Neal's office and offered to play for $5M.
Further, Neal let a division rival walk in and improve itself.
All this represents the very opposite of competing. So here's the deal: said a few weeks back we'd find out if Neal was telling the truth or lying. It's not so much about what they did, its about what they "promised" and once again lied about. The only thing we're competing for is last place in the division.
Does that change the prospective?
I hate being lied to.....
No one likes to be lied to. Many think they always lie. But now they are believed? All GMs give the fans hope. Did you watch the Winter Meetings? They all said the same thing.
Huntington is pretty careful in his wording. He did emphasize how this team will compete, will show up and give 100% every day. You can look at that as meaning giving it their all game in and game out. Or you can look at it as competing to make the playoffs.
I don't get too caught up in words. Actions speak louder to me. Trading Cole and McCutchen was the sign to me that they are rebuilding, even if they didn't actually say that. Though, Huntington did mention "three years from now".
I am not sure what this has to do with the conversation in hand about "going for it".
NH's version of competing is showing up every day. It has nothing to do with results. This team that he is trying to sell as one that will compete will be one of the worst team in MLB. That isn't fielding a competitive team. What changes three years from now? What significant pieces are brought in to help this roster? Do tell. You will have a new catcher - probably a bottom of the barrel type. Rivero will be long gone. Marte and Polanco will still be enigma's and I haven't even touched on the starting rotation.
Lesson ... don't try to sell to a fan base that this team will be competitive in 2018. Fans have a different idea of what the term competitive means. And don't say in three years ...
well by this definition of competing any time a game is played the team is competitive. Which makes the words meaningless.
The Pirates sell hope and nothing else.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
Here's an interesting mlbtr note on the Brewers --
"FanGraphs is only projecting them to win 77 games at the moment. That, of course, factors in notable contributions from Cain and Yelich, who are forecast to combine for just under 7.0 fWAR."
Even with those two moves, it sounds like they need to add some pitching.
"FanGraphs is only projecting them to win 77 games at the moment. That, of course, factors in notable contributions from Cain and Yelich, who are forecast to combine for just under 7.0 fWAR."
Even with those two moves, it sounds like they need to add some pitching.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
4D606D7C7B6A7D3D3E0F0 wrote: To be fair, Liriano was a significant FA signing in 12/14. He was certainly a reclamation project when signed in 2013 but turned out to be valuable, winning 16 games in 2013 and despite a 7-10 record in 2014, had an ERA of 3.38, had more KS (175) than IP (162) and far fewer hits (130) than IP. Having resurrected his career and still just 31, they needed him for the 2015 season and managed to re-sign him. And that was another good year for him before things began to go sour.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
656E666A6F6E753036417860696E6E2F626E010 wrote: That's it. Now I get it.
When things go good, it is all luck.
When things go bad, they are stupid moves.
Thank you!
You really need to take a break. You are the ultimate apologist for a management team that is absolutely terrible; isn't committed to fielding a competitive team and is very adept at lying.
When you bring in reclamation projects and they work, its luck. Reclamation projects are what they are. They are players that have struggled and have shown little value at the time - hence reclamation projects. You are lucky if the seven or eight of them work, like what happened in Pittsburgh. This isn't rocket science. Seven or eight cheap reclamation projects working out is luck. There is zero debating that.
When things go good, it is all luck.
When things go bad, they are stupid moves.
Thank you!
You really need to take a break. You are the ultimate apologist for a management team that is absolutely terrible; isn't committed to fielding a competitive team and is very adept at lying.
When you bring in reclamation projects and they work, its luck. Reclamation projects are what they are. They are players that have struggled and have shown little value at the time - hence reclamation projects. You are lucky if the seven or eight of them work, like what happened in Pittsburgh. This isn't rocket science. Seven or eight cheap reclamation projects working out is luck. There is zero debating that.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
7C777F7376776C292F586179707777367B77180 wrote: You are right. I don't know what you are talking about. I am not way off base saying Liriano, Burnett, Cervelli and Kang were huge impacts to the 2015 team that had the second best record in all of baseball. Liriano was still a top free agent in 2015. I am not sure why you think he was a "reclamation project" or why that even matters. He was a very good pitcher. Burnett had his best ERA of his career in 2015 too.
Trades at the deadline were not Byrd and Morneau. They were Happ and Soria, who also made very big impacts. Just because you didn't like the trades doesn't mean they didn't produce. They did produce. Huntington was right. But of course, when Huntington is right it is because he is lucky. Were you unlucky in not liking those trades?
Again, I am not a fool knowing the team won 98 games. To put that in perspective, only one NL team and two in the AL won more games last year. Yes, they went for it in 2015. If they weren't going for it, why did they make any of those moves?
Oh yeah, Cueto was pretty bad for the Royals He wasn't resigned when he hit free agency. Shields walked in 2015 and wasn't part of their WS team.
Most baseball people with a brain know Happ was trash when he was acquired from Seattle. 4-6, 4.64 ERA at the time of the deal. Don't try to think you knew what was coming. The Pirates certainly didn't because there was no evidence to suggest that. That was fluky stuff by Happ based on his previous few years.
Soria was an eh acquisition. It was ok. It wasn't the acquisition that puts one over the top. If the Pirates really wanted to bring in something valuable, they would have brought in someone better than Happ and Soria.
Cueto didn't pitch well for KC. So? When he was acquired, he was 7-6 with a 2.62 ERA coming in from a bad Cincinnati team. I would say he had a much better resume prior to the deal then Happ did. Happy could only dream about being a 7-6 Cueto at that time.
Shields got KC back to the World Series. They lost that series, but he was an important get to get them over the hump.
Bottom line, and it doesn't take being a rocket science to figure this out ... KC was/is a lot like Pittsburgh as far as baseball franchise. Both sucked for a good portion of two decades. One decided to bring in rehab players and hope to get them to the next level, while the other franchise made some moves by trading pretty good prospects for veteran pitchers. That result got them to two world series in which they won one. It doesn't change my argument. A seven year old would understand that.
Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria are all the same player when Pittsburgh acquired them as their attempt to run to the pennant. They weren't thought of as big time adds. They pale in comparison to the acquisitions KC made to get over the hump. One made a conscience effort to make it, while the other one really didn't.
Trades at the deadline were not Byrd and Morneau. They were Happ and Soria, who also made very big impacts. Just because you didn't like the trades doesn't mean they didn't produce. They did produce. Huntington was right. But of course, when Huntington is right it is because he is lucky. Were you unlucky in not liking those trades?
Again, I am not a fool knowing the team won 98 games. To put that in perspective, only one NL team and two in the AL won more games last year. Yes, they went for it in 2015. If they weren't going for it, why did they make any of those moves?
Oh yeah, Cueto was pretty bad for the Royals He wasn't resigned when he hit free agency. Shields walked in 2015 and wasn't part of their WS team.
Most baseball people with a brain know Happ was trash when he was acquired from Seattle. 4-6, 4.64 ERA at the time of the deal. Don't try to think you knew what was coming. The Pirates certainly didn't because there was no evidence to suggest that. That was fluky stuff by Happ based on his previous few years.
Soria was an eh acquisition. It was ok. It wasn't the acquisition that puts one over the top. If the Pirates really wanted to bring in something valuable, they would have brought in someone better than Happ and Soria.
Cueto didn't pitch well for KC. So? When he was acquired, he was 7-6 with a 2.62 ERA coming in from a bad Cincinnati team. I would say he had a much better resume prior to the deal then Happ did. Happy could only dream about being a 7-6 Cueto at that time.
Shields got KC back to the World Series. They lost that series, but he was an important get to get them over the hump.
Bottom line, and it doesn't take being a rocket science to figure this out ... KC was/is a lot like Pittsburgh as far as baseball franchise. Both sucked for a good portion of two decades. One decided to bring in rehab players and hope to get them to the next level, while the other franchise made some moves by trading pretty good prospects for veteran pitchers. That result got them to two world series in which they won one. It doesn't change my argument. A seven year old would understand that.
Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria are all the same player when Pittsburgh acquired them as their attempt to run to the pennant. They weren't thought of as big time adds. They pale in comparison to the acquisitions KC made to get over the hump. One made a conscience effort to make it, while the other one really didn't.
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Bobster21
Brewers Interested in Yelich
0313122533333F500 wrote: To be fair, Liriano was a significant FA signing in 12/14. He was certainly a reclamation project when signed in 2013 but turned out to be valuable, winning 16 games in 2013 and despite a 7-10 record in 2014, had an ERA of 3.38, had more KS (175) than IP (162) and far fewer hits (130) than IP. Having resurrected his career and still just 31, they needed him for the 2015 season and managed to re-sign him. And that was another good year for him before things began to go sour.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Except for Liriano. Initially a reclamation project. But he became a very good pitcher for them and they seldom re-sign a productive player when he's a FA. That was a very significant move at the time. They did get good production from a lot of other guys in 2015 who did not appear to be top notch acquisitions. Even Kang was a question because it was unknown if Korean League pitching could prepare him for MLB. It would be great if the Pirates were so smart at talent evaluation that it was no coincidence that so many lesser acquisitions in 2015 did well. But if that were true, there wouldn't also be the average to below average players they acquire who fail to produce. But that's the problem with the Pirates' strategy. It's fine when your 2nd and 3rd tier acquisitions do well. But then when Jaso, Niese, Vogelsong, Hudson and LeBlanc fail to find a higher level to play at than their recent pasts would suggest possible, it leaves holes unfilled. The Brewers don't have to hope Yelich and Cain significantly outperform their pasts. They just want them to have their usual productive seasons.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Except for Liriano. Initially a reclamation project. But he became a very good pitcher for them and they seldom re-sign a productive player when he's a FA. That was a very significant move at the time. They did get good production from a lot of other guys in 2015 who did not appear to be top notch acquisitions. Even Kang was a question because it was unknown if Korean League pitching could prepare him for MLB. It would be great if the Pirates were so smart at talent evaluation that it was no coincidence that so many lesser acquisitions in 2015 did well. But if that were true, there wouldn't also be the average to below average players they acquire who fail to produce. But that's the problem with the Pirates' strategy. It's fine when your 2nd and 3rd tier acquisitions do well. But then when Jaso, Niese, Vogelsong, Hudson and LeBlanc fail to find a higher level to play at than their recent pasts would suggest possible, it leaves holes unfilled. The Brewers don't have to hope Yelich and Cain significantly outperform their pasts. They just want them to have their usual productive seasons.
Brewers Interested in Yelich
785558494E5F48080B3A0 wrote: To be fair, Liriano was a significant FA signing in 12/14. He was certainly a reclamation project when signed in 2013 but turned out to be valuable, winning 16 games in 2013 and despite a 7-10 record in 2014, had an ERA of 3.38, had more KS (175) than IP (162) and far fewer hits (130) than IP. Having resurrected his career and still just 31, they needed him for the 2015 season and managed to re-sign him. And that was another good year for him before things began to go sour.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Except for Liriano. Initially a reclamation project. But he became a very good pitcher for them and they seldom re-sign a productive player when he's a FA. That was a very significant move at the time. They did get good production from a lot of other guys in 2015 who did not appear to be top notch acquisitions. Even Kang was a question because it was unknown if Korean League pitching could prepare him for MLB. It would be great if the Pirates were so smart at talent evaluation that it was no coincidence that so many lesser acquisitions in 2015 did well. But if that were true, there wouldn't also be the average to below average players they acquire who fail to produce. But that's the problem with the Pirates' strategy. It's fine when your 2nd and 3rd tier acquisitions do well. But then when Jaso, Niese, Vogelsong, Hudson and LeBlanc fail to find a higher level to play at than their recent pasts would suggest possible, it leaves holes unfilled. The Brewers don't have to hope Yelich and Cain significantly outperform their pasts. They just want them to have their usual productive seasons.
Liriano rebuilt his resume which got him to resign in Pittsburgh. I won't deny that. However, Pittsburgh needed more than resigning Liriano to get over the hump. They didn't make what I would call a major move as far as bringing in new blood - one notable player that you could say right off the bat ... this was a great move that will help.
You brought up a great point. Its great if your second tier adds, like Voglesong, Niese and like players do well. But, when they are your top adds, that is a major problem. None of them did anything good either.
Burnett was a different story. When acquired in 2012, it was a typical Pirate move to acquire an aging (35) formerly good pitcher whose career had gone downhill (not unexpected for that age) and coming off 2 particularly bad years. They even got the Yankees to pay most of his salary. But Burnett gave the Bucs 2 good seasons and then left and had a bad season at age 37. Signing him again at age 38 for 2015 and coming off a bad year was not the type of move a team makes to go all in. Nor was leaving Locke and Morton in the rotation. At least Burnett worked out, which was a pleasant surprise.
And getting Cervelli for 2015 was good but only necessary because they wouldn't pay Russell Martin more to keep him after he had been an outstanding addition to the team. So they essentially swapped out Martin and Justin Wilson for Cervelli to avoid paying Martin.
They also brought in Kang, S-Rod, Caminero, Bastardo and Blanton who all did well.
They got good seasons from a lot of players but still went with Locke and Morton and let Martin go. Other than re-signing Liriano, there were no big splash moves but for the Pirates, it was a good off season. They didn't go after Happ until Burnett got hurt at the trade deadline and Happ was a desperation move because they needed a starter and he was available because he had pitched so poorly. No one expected that turnaround from him.
You are only mentioning reclamation projects. They didn't bring in anyone of Yelich's or Cain's ilk. Not even close. Brining in reclamation projects and praying they work out isn't the same.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Except for Liriano. Initially a reclamation project. But he became a very good pitcher for them and they seldom re-sign a productive player when he's a FA. That was a very significant move at the time. They did get good production from a lot of other guys in 2015 who did not appear to be top notch acquisitions. Even Kang was a question because it was unknown if Korean League pitching could prepare him for MLB. It would be great if the Pirates were so smart at talent evaluation that it was no coincidence that so many lesser acquisitions in 2015 did well. But if that were true, there wouldn't also be the average to below average players they acquire who fail to produce. But that's the problem with the Pirates' strategy. It's fine when your 2nd and 3rd tier acquisitions do well. But then when Jaso, Niese, Vogelsong, Hudson and LeBlanc fail to find a higher level to play at than their recent pasts would suggest possible, it leaves holes unfilled. The Brewers don't have to hope Yelich and Cain significantly outperform their pasts. They just want them to have their usual productive seasons.
Liriano rebuilt his resume which got him to resign in Pittsburgh. I won't deny that. However, Pittsburgh needed more than resigning Liriano to get over the hump. They didn't make what I would call a major move as far as bringing in new blood - one notable player that you could say right off the bat ... this was a great move that will help.
You brought up a great point. Its great if your second tier adds, like Voglesong, Niese and like players do well. But, when they are your top adds, that is a major problem. None of them did anything good either.