4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote: [quote
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
right you are pretty generous. Giving him 7 years to make from one playoff to contention for the next.
An observation
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
An observation
The best thing that could happen would be to move the team. I pray this team is moved out of Pittsburgh, though MLB would never approve it.
We would have a new team, probably a better team, more quickly than another attempt at rebuilding with these jokers.
The clock is already ticking on Marte. Tick tock. Taillons arbitration (if he's a true #2) is going to make TBMTIB intrigued to sell him off for prospects in 3 years.
Tick tock. Move the team
We would have a new team, probably a better team, more quickly than another attempt at rebuilding with these jokers.
The clock is already ticking on Marte. Tick tock. Taillons arbitration (if he's a true #2) is going to make TBMTIB intrigued to sell him off for prospects in 3 years.
Tick tock. Move the team
An observation
616A626E6B6A713432457C646D6A6A2B666A050 wrote: [quote
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
You're saying "showing promise" and "playoff contention" aren't the same to you?
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
You're saying "showing promise" and "playoff contention" aren't the same to you?
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
64617665334241000 wrote: [quote
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
You're saying "showing promise" and "playoff contention" aren't the same to you?
Correct.
For example, in 2011 you saw the makings of a good team. 2012 should have ended much better and at least been over .500. A terrible collapse after that Atlanta game. Then playoffs happened.
If there are no signs in the next three years, Huntington will have to go.
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
You're saying "showing promise" and "playoff contention" aren't the same to you?
Correct.
For example, in 2011 you saw the makings of a good team. 2012 should have ended much better and at least been over .500. A terrible collapse after that Atlanta game. Then playoffs happened.
If there are no signs in the next three years, Huntington will have to go.
-
Bobster21
An observation
3338303C3938236660172E363F3838793438570 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
7-2 1.85 ERA was picked up at the deadline. If I recall, that was the best starting pitcher traded for at the deadline? Brought in a set up man and a guy to help Alvarez at first. Brought in a borderline hall of famer to play third base. Brought in another defensive infielder too. Even brought back the guy they traded before the season even started. All deadline deals.
Maybe if Alvarez played more they would have won 101 games? Maybe if Kang doesn't get hurt? We don't know.
If the Royals didn't win it all in 2015, what would they have done? Would they have been a .500 team in 2016? Would they still be selling off their players now?
The Royals won the WS in their window of opportunity. Everything fell into place. The Pirates came up short in the end. They made moves (six deadline moves), but still came up short. Sucks for us, great for them. I wouldn't say because the Pirates didn't win it all that they don't care or didn't try to win.
No. What was picked up at the deadline was 4-6, 4.64. What was picked up was a pitcher who had been struggling for 5 years and in the midst of another bad season. It's great that he pitched so well for the Pirates. But they did not identify a productive pitcher and then go out and get him. The made a last minute acquisition when Burnett got injured and Happ was the best they could come up with. Don't for 1 second suggest they he was a quality pitcher when they added him or that they knew he would immediately reverse a 5-year trend. If they knew he would be so freakin' good why didn't they go out and get him much sooner to replace the struggling Morton or Locke instead of waiting until the last minute of the deadline and then only because Burnett was unexpectedly injured and had to be replaced ASAP? In fact, they didn't even believe it was legit because they didn't bother to re-sign him.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
7-2 1.85 ERA was picked up at the deadline. If I recall, that was the best starting pitcher traded for at the deadline? Brought in a set up man and a guy to help Alvarez at first. Brought in a borderline hall of famer to play third base. Brought in another defensive infielder too. Even brought back the guy they traded before the season even started. All deadline deals.
Maybe if Alvarez played more they would have won 101 games? Maybe if Kang doesn't get hurt? We don't know.
If the Royals didn't win it all in 2015, what would they have done? Would they have been a .500 team in 2016? Would they still be selling off their players now?
The Royals won the WS in their window of opportunity. Everything fell into place. The Pirates came up short in the end. They made moves (six deadline moves), but still came up short. Sucks for us, great for them. I wouldn't say because the Pirates didn't win it all that they don't care or didn't try to win.
No. What was picked up at the deadline was 4-6, 4.64. What was picked up was a pitcher who had been struggling for 5 years and in the midst of another bad season. It's great that he pitched so well for the Pirates. But they did not identify a productive pitcher and then go out and get him. The made a last minute acquisition when Burnett got injured and Happ was the best they could come up with. Don't for 1 second suggest they he was a quality pitcher when they added him or that they knew he would immediately reverse a 5-year trend. If they knew he would be so freakin' good why didn't they go out and get him much sooner to replace the struggling Morton or Locke instead of waiting until the last minute of the deadline and then only because Burnett was unexpectedly injured and had to be replaced ASAP? In fact, they didn't even believe it was legit because they didn't bother to re-sign him.
An observation
Even after the season, they didn't trust it enough for a 3/36. There's no evidence they thought they were buying a real good pitcher in Happ.
Liked him. Didn't like him enough after dominating for 2 months to offer him 3/36.
So serves logic they didn't think he was great pripr to the deadline..after his very pedestrian season...and on the verge of being dfaed.
They weren't going to do anything until Burnett went down...then scrambled
Liked him. Didn't like him enough after dominating for 2 months to offer him 3/36.
So serves logic they didn't think he was great pripr to the deadline..after his very pedestrian season...and on the verge of being dfaed.
They weren't going to do anything until Burnett went down...then scrambled
-
rucker59@gmail.com
An observation
171F1C2B3D183F305E0 wrote: Here's my thoughts on it.
Neither Cutch nor Cole were salary dumps. They are going to be well under even the modest (by MLB standards anyway) payroll ceiling they've arbitrarily set. In other words, they COULD have kept one, the other, or both, and not lost money. I'm convinced neither move was necessitated by money. Now, to be sure, they HAVE made moves that were mostly financial in nature (e.g. Liriano). However, these two are not that. And, I think it does a disservice to the rightful criticisms against Nutting (i.e. calling him cheap).
Rather, the issue I have with the team are two fold, and one is at least tangentially related to finances.
First, as others have noted, they did utterly nothing following 2013, a year and a team that absolutely revitalized baseball in the city of Pittsburgh. The 2013 WC game will go down as one of the greatest sporting events in Pittsburgh history. But, they did nothing. In fact, they let Burnett walk away. They brought in Volquez, which worked out and that prayer was answered.
Fast forward to 2014. The team started off slowly (10-18). But, they turned it on late, and with a late push, got another WC game. Again, they did absolutely nothing to augment a good team, unless you count swapping Russell Martin for Cervelli.
In 2015, they have an emerging ace, brought back Burnett who had arguably the best year of his career, and Liriano was great. McCutchen had another great year. Cervelli had a career year. Marte was an All-Star. And what did they do following a disappointing loss to Arrieta and the Cubs? They traded their starting second baseman, non-tendered their best power bat, and tried to fill the void created by Burnett and Morton with Niese and Vogelsong. In other words, again, they did utterly nothing.
Three straight years of winning records. 280 wins in three years. Anything done to upgrade the team? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's where the fault lies in this.
If you care about the team, and not individual players on the team, which I do, it's not about McCutchen. It's not smart signing an aging veteran who has shown massive signs of decline into his upper 30s. It's not smart for the Yankees, and it's certainly not smart for the Pirates. So, I don't fault them for that whatsoever. But, I do fault them for not trying to augment this team when they were legitimately competitive.
The second problem I have isn't about money at all. It's a problem others have noted many times, and it's the issue of drafting. NH's drafts have been nothing short of abysmal. A few years ago, we had the #1 ranked farm system in baseball. So, something was going right. But, so many of those guys have not panned out.
Cole and Alvarez, while good players, haven't lived up to expectations. Taillon had TJ surgery and then cancer. Kingham had TJ surgery. Tucker had labrum surgery. McGuire was dealt to induce the Jays to take Liriano's salary. Meadows' star seems to have stalled. Jury is still out on Newman and Kramer, but to me, they look like Jordy Mercer types...good players who would start on good teams, but not guys who MAKE a team good.
I said this during the World Series. The Astros seem to have hit on everyone they drafted. Where's our Correa? Where's our Springer? Bregman? Where's our IFAs like Altuve or Gurriel? Where's our diamond in the rough from a draft like 7th rounder Dallas Keuchel?
I don't expect them to draft a hall of famer every year. But, if they want to be competitive, since they can't or won't sign good players and can't or won't trade for them, the only way we can get them is through the draft.
You identified two legitimate problems. I agree with both. But there is a third problem this FO is guilty of and for me it’s the worse: they have lied to the fans every step of the way. Even now Neal is lying. Talking about being better than the past two years; talk about competing now. Few things break a trust faster than lies. There is no trust between the fans and nutting. I HATE the lies. I despise them.
Neither Cutch nor Cole were salary dumps. They are going to be well under even the modest (by MLB standards anyway) payroll ceiling they've arbitrarily set. In other words, they COULD have kept one, the other, or both, and not lost money. I'm convinced neither move was necessitated by money. Now, to be sure, they HAVE made moves that were mostly financial in nature (e.g. Liriano). However, these two are not that. And, I think it does a disservice to the rightful criticisms against Nutting (i.e. calling him cheap).
Rather, the issue I have with the team are two fold, and one is at least tangentially related to finances.
First, as others have noted, they did utterly nothing following 2013, a year and a team that absolutely revitalized baseball in the city of Pittsburgh. The 2013 WC game will go down as one of the greatest sporting events in Pittsburgh history. But, they did nothing. In fact, they let Burnett walk away. They brought in Volquez, which worked out and that prayer was answered.
Fast forward to 2014. The team started off slowly (10-18). But, they turned it on late, and with a late push, got another WC game. Again, they did absolutely nothing to augment a good team, unless you count swapping Russell Martin for Cervelli.
In 2015, they have an emerging ace, brought back Burnett who had arguably the best year of his career, and Liriano was great. McCutchen had another great year. Cervelli had a career year. Marte was an All-Star. And what did they do following a disappointing loss to Arrieta and the Cubs? They traded their starting second baseman, non-tendered their best power bat, and tried to fill the void created by Burnett and Morton with Niese and Vogelsong. In other words, again, they did utterly nothing.
Three straight years of winning records. 280 wins in three years. Anything done to upgrade the team? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's where the fault lies in this.
If you care about the team, and not individual players on the team, which I do, it's not about McCutchen. It's not smart signing an aging veteran who has shown massive signs of decline into his upper 30s. It's not smart for the Yankees, and it's certainly not smart for the Pirates. So, I don't fault them for that whatsoever. But, I do fault them for not trying to augment this team when they were legitimately competitive.
The second problem I have isn't about money at all. It's a problem others have noted many times, and it's the issue of drafting. NH's drafts have been nothing short of abysmal. A few years ago, we had the #1 ranked farm system in baseball. So, something was going right. But, so many of those guys have not panned out.
Cole and Alvarez, while good players, haven't lived up to expectations. Taillon had TJ surgery and then cancer. Kingham had TJ surgery. Tucker had labrum surgery. McGuire was dealt to induce the Jays to take Liriano's salary. Meadows' star seems to have stalled. Jury is still out on Newman and Kramer, but to me, they look like Jordy Mercer types...good players who would start on good teams, but not guys who MAKE a team good.
I said this during the World Series. The Astros seem to have hit on everyone they drafted. Where's our Correa? Where's our Springer? Bregman? Where's our IFAs like Altuve or Gurriel? Where's our diamond in the rough from a draft like 7th rounder Dallas Keuchel?
I don't expect them to draft a hall of famer every year. But, if they want to be competitive, since they can't or won't sign good players and can't or won't trade for them, the only way we can get them is through the draft.
You identified two legitimate problems. I agree with both. But there is a third problem this FO is guilty of and for me it’s the worse: they have lied to the fans every step of the way. Even now Neal is lying. Talking about being better than the past two years; talk about competing now. Few things break a trust faster than lies. There is no trust between the fans and nutting. I HATE the lies. I despise them.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
An observation
3B30383431302B6E681F263E373030713C305F0 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
4B4C5A525C4B0C00795E54585055175A5654390 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
I believe in windows of opportunity. The rebuild just started.
I am giving him three years to show a team has been put together. I expect them to be big time contenders in five years.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
I believe in windows of opportunity. The rebuild just started.
I am giving him three years to show a team has been put together. I expect them to be big time contenders in five years.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
An observation
6368606C6968733630477E666F6868296468070 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
I believe in windows of opportunity. The rebuild just started.
I am giving him three years to show a team has been put together. I expect them to be big time contenders in five years.
Do you understand that many fans can’t accept that reality?
Personally, this is admission that Neal failed badly as GM - for years he justified limited improvements to the current team in order to remain competitive in future years. His Philosophy was to get to the playoff in more years rather than load up on any one year. It turns out he sacrificed the current seasons for no reason: now we’re reduced to hoping he can get back within the next four years plus the last two years of failure.
Plan and simple: his overall plan has failed and in the process he may have cost the Pirates a WS.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
You’re giving Neal till 2022 to contend again?
The same GM that promised to keep the team in contention every year and now we’re saying it’s ok to not compete for 7 years? And if he misses by 2022, we’re looking at another epic losing streak
I believe in windows of opportunity. The rebuild just started.
I am giving him three years to show a team has been put together. I expect them to be big time contenders in five years.
Do you understand that many fans can’t accept that reality?
Personally, this is admission that Neal failed badly as GM - for years he justified limited improvements to the current team in order to remain competitive in future years. His Philosophy was to get to the playoff in more years rather than load up on any one year. It turns out he sacrificed the current seasons for no reason: now we’re reduced to hoping he can get back within the next four years plus the last two years of failure.
Plan and simple: his overall plan has failed and in the process he may have cost the Pirates a WS.