6F636A67702C766B6F6D766A7B303242656F020 wrote: I get everyone's frustration, but I'd like to point out, there isn't a doubt in my mind a lot of it comes from these close losses.
And we've had a lot of them. The difference we're seeing from last season is now we're experiencing how close we can be to actually being a competent team.
They have introduced a number of new players this year to get their feet wet. We're also getting our feet wet.
I can see on the horizon where more of these close games start getting won. That's a plus.
My issues are as someone mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a sure thing with any of these young guys. But let's stop for a second and think, before this season did anyone every mention Bligh Madris? Marcano? Suwinski? Mitchell? I think we need to take a step back and realize, the guys that are supposed to be the next big thing are in AA and A ball.
I know there's a blowhard all about banging on BC on this board, but give the guy a chance. Who the heck starts a thing over with no budget and builds it overnight? NO ONE. His first draft had 5 rounds and no one he was able to watch play. He's had two full drafts now. Were you expecting them to make the jump from high school all star to MLB all star in two years?
Just my take. Some say it doesn't make a difference firing the manager of a bad team mid season. I disagree. I hear all the time managers only affect "X" amount of games a season. I think that's horse hockey, because teams like the Pirates have a wider margin of one bad decision affecting the outcome, and I think Shelton has repeatedly done this.
I have criticism of BC myself, first and foremost is Shelton, and secondly, this continued resting of players. I would love to hear him explain to me how Contreras couldn't be built up in the majors instead of AAA. I would love to know why Josh VanMeter has been on the roster all season, when there are clearly guys from AA up that can outplay him, or at least play to his level. What are they going to do with Cruz? That rifle arm aside, he looks like he plays shortstop on ice skates, and I don't think he's going to be the future there. This will be my last take on BC, I want to see him extend Reynolds. He came back down to earth, but he's still the face of the franchise no matter how much they want to make it someone else. I see the names on the backs of the jerseys, and when it comes to the current team, only Hayes is close.
I've been on board with the rebuild generally but the past few weeks has really brought home that not all rebuilds work.
The Taillon and Musgrove trades are hard to measure now but it seems apparent that the Bell and Marte trades were complete busts. Those are two damn good players and we got virtually nothing in return.
I've assumed all arrows were pointing toward 2024 but now I'm wondering if they're really pointing toward 2030.
I don't think the Marte trade was a bust yet. Peguero still can be a good contributor. Brennan Malone looks like a bust.
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
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Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
Marte was > "a good contributor."
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
724750505B6250505B5C50350 wrote: Marte was > "a good contributor."
yep, so Peguero needs to be at least that and then the gamble is Malone (and Malone looks like a very long shot now).
Think of the salary saved too!
yep, so Peguero needs to be at least that and then the gamble is Malone (and Malone looks like a very long shot now).
Think of the salary saved too!
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
Cherington isn't any victim. These were his decisions.
I think that we should allow for things that no one here knows. We don't know which players would have chosen to remain with the club. We don't know the finances. The perception is that Cherington, like some other executives have done- came in and cleaned house of just about anything left here by the previous guy.
Cherington oversees all baseball operations. Player development and field management fall under his oversight.
If we were winning, he'd receive the credit. We're not, so...
Contrary to one person's opinion, no one here expected immediate success.
Each of us has our individual opinion of-
A) The amount of Time that we think is reasonable, and
B) The definition of "success."
No one here expected a World Series by now, or even post-season play. Look at the Prediction thread. I think that expections were within reason. Surg creates an argument that never existed.
And, if Cherington handed the keys to Shelton to drive this team any way he chooses, then that's on Cherington. I expect a certain amount of oversight with an OJT manager.
If the arrow points toward 2030, the good news is, someone will defend 2032!
I think that we should allow for things that no one here knows. We don't know which players would have chosen to remain with the club. We don't know the finances. The perception is that Cherington, like some other executives have done- came in and cleaned house of just about anything left here by the previous guy.
Cherington oversees all baseball operations. Player development and field management fall under his oversight.
If we were winning, he'd receive the credit. We're not, so...
Contrary to one person's opinion, no one here expected immediate success.
Each of us has our individual opinion of-
A) The amount of Time that we think is reasonable, and
B) The definition of "success."
No one here expected a World Series by now, or even post-season play. Look at the Prediction thread. I think that expections were within reason. Surg creates an argument that never existed.
And, if Cherington handed the keys to Shelton to drive this team any way he chooses, then that's on Cherington. I expect a certain amount of oversight with an OJT manager.
If the arrow points toward 2030, the good news is, someone will defend 2032!
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
Our eyes don’t deceive us, this is the worst hitting team in Pirate history. Since joining the NL in 1887, except for the Covid-shortened year of 2020, this year’s team average of .221 is the worst ever. Since 1900, only six Pirate teams have hit .240 or less, with the previous low being .231 in 1952.
Except for 2020, this year’s team On-Base-Percentage of .288 is also the worst since 1900. Although the Bucs’ average of 3.61 runs per game is only the 12th worst since 1900, six of the lower averages came between years 1900 and 1920. And although the final results aren’t yet in, this team has a strong likelihood of having the most strike outs of any Pirate team. What is even more alarming, this historic failure is coming in the first year of the DH. Every other season’s stats were burdened with the weight of pitcher’s hitting stats included.
Times have changed. In 1979 the Pirates team average was .272 (.282 if you excluded pitchers) and the MLB average was .270 – that included both leagues (NL with pitchers, AL without). This year the MLB composite batting average is .243, and only the A’s team average (.215) is lower than the Bucs. While the Bucs are historically bad, they are not completely alone. Batting averages have been trending downward for many years at all levels of professional ball. In 1979, an average hitter was around .270, a good hitter was .290 or more, and a weaker hitter was .240 or less. Performance levels have shifted. In today’s game, an average hitter is in the .240s, better hitters are around .270, and poor hitters are in the .220 range or less.
With so many rookies, and utility type players, it is not surprising the Bucs are struggling. Even our players who have hit well previously -- like Hayes, Reynolds, and Newman -- are finding it hard to hit well consistently. But those three have been more consistent than established vets like Willie Adames (.223), Brandon Crawford (.221), Mike Yastrzemski (.220), Marcell Ozuna (.214), Joey Votto (.210), Cody Bellinger (.208), and Max Muncy (.188).
The Pirates are near the bottom statistically in hitting, pitching and fielding. Field management and coaching is at the bottom. There is a lot to work on, and it doesn’t appear BC is going to supplement many mid-level free agents to bridge the gap along the way. In my opinion, BC is keeping the Pirates in somewhat of a self-induced coma until enough internal pieces are in place to compete. They have no interest in spending extra money to be mediocre. We have heard this before, but hopefully (????), outside pieces will be added at the right time.
Meanwhile, just because we are frustrated as heck, doesn’t mean the prospects here now, and those soon to follow, don’t deserve some time adjust to the rigors of MLB pitching. And based on the industry batting average slides noted above, we shouldn’t expect all of them to hit .270. If we can segment the things they do wrong, we should be excited about the strength’s guys like Cruz, Suwinski, and Marcano have shown this year. When you don’t have money, or won’t spend it, rebuilds take some time. Now, back to being frustrated.
Except for 2020, this year’s team On-Base-Percentage of .288 is also the worst since 1900. Although the Bucs’ average of 3.61 runs per game is only the 12th worst since 1900, six of the lower averages came between years 1900 and 1920. And although the final results aren’t yet in, this team has a strong likelihood of having the most strike outs of any Pirate team. What is even more alarming, this historic failure is coming in the first year of the DH. Every other season’s stats were burdened with the weight of pitcher’s hitting stats included.
Times have changed. In 1979 the Pirates team average was .272 (.282 if you excluded pitchers) and the MLB average was .270 – that included both leagues (NL with pitchers, AL without). This year the MLB composite batting average is .243, and only the A’s team average (.215) is lower than the Bucs. While the Bucs are historically bad, they are not completely alone. Batting averages have been trending downward for many years at all levels of professional ball. In 1979, an average hitter was around .270, a good hitter was .290 or more, and a weaker hitter was .240 or less. Performance levels have shifted. In today’s game, an average hitter is in the .240s, better hitters are around .270, and poor hitters are in the .220 range or less.
With so many rookies, and utility type players, it is not surprising the Bucs are struggling. Even our players who have hit well previously -- like Hayes, Reynolds, and Newman -- are finding it hard to hit well consistently. But those three have been more consistent than established vets like Willie Adames (.223), Brandon Crawford (.221), Mike Yastrzemski (.220), Marcell Ozuna (.214), Joey Votto (.210), Cody Bellinger (.208), and Max Muncy (.188).
The Pirates are near the bottom statistically in hitting, pitching and fielding. Field management and coaching is at the bottom. There is a lot to work on, and it doesn’t appear BC is going to supplement many mid-level free agents to bridge the gap along the way. In my opinion, BC is keeping the Pirates in somewhat of a self-induced coma until enough internal pieces are in place to compete. They have no interest in spending extra money to be mediocre. We have heard this before, but hopefully (????), outside pieces will be added at the right time.
Meanwhile, just because we are frustrated as heck, doesn’t mean the prospects here now, and those soon to follow, don’t deserve some time adjust to the rigors of MLB pitching. And based on the industry batting average slides noted above, we shouldn’t expect all of them to hit .270. If we can segment the things they do wrong, we should be excited about the strength’s guys like Cruz, Suwinski, and Marcano have shown this year. When you don’t have money, or won’t spend it, rebuilds take some time. Now, back to being frustrated.
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maher.timothy20@gm
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
45426E796F0C0 wrote:
Meanwhile, just because we are frustrated as heck, doesn’t mean the prospects here now, and those soon to follow, don’t deserve some time adjust to the rigors of MLB pitching.
I'm not frustrated because the Pirates stink now. I'm also not frustrated because rookies take time to adjust. I fully expect Cruz and even Hayes to take a few more years before they fully hit their stride.
I'm frustrated because the talent we've supposedly acquired in the minors is being exposed as mediocre as it reaches AAA. I don't see any upcoming outfielders that look much better than the next coming of Jose Osuna. Pegeuro and Gonzales both look terrible this year, so there goes your infield. Last year's darling Matt Fraizer now looks mediocre. This year's darling Matt Gorski has had a half a good season at AA. We don't have any legit 1B prospects at all unless you count Nunez. Priester, Burrows, etc. might be good but pitchers even more than position players can take years to figure things out.
Meanwhile, just because we are frustrated as heck, doesn’t mean the prospects here now, and those soon to follow, don’t deserve some time adjust to the rigors of MLB pitching.
I'm not frustrated because the Pirates stink now. I'm also not frustrated because rookies take time to adjust. I fully expect Cruz and even Hayes to take a few more years before they fully hit their stride.
I'm frustrated because the talent we've supposedly acquired in the minors is being exposed as mediocre as it reaches AAA. I don't see any upcoming outfielders that look much better than the next coming of Jose Osuna. Pegeuro and Gonzales both look terrible this year, so there goes your infield. Last year's darling Matt Fraizer now looks mediocre. This year's darling Matt Gorski has had a half a good season at AA. We don't have any legit 1B prospects at all unless you count Nunez. Priester, Burrows, etc. might be good but pitchers even more than position players can take years to figure things out.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
I think that you raise a good point.
We can place every player into whatever category we choose, and I don't think that it matters all that much.
Whether we're thinking of experience level, compensation level, position, how they were acquired, you name it, I think that it comes down to one thing: how well do/will they match up to their competition? I see this as the primary issue.
We can place every player into whatever category we choose, and I don't think that it matters all that much.
Whether we're thinking of experience level, compensation level, position, how they were acquired, you name it, I think that it comes down to one thing: how well do/will they match up to their competition? I see this as the primary issue.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
64424550595542545C370 wrote: I get everyone's frustration, but I'd like to point out, there isn't a doubt in my mind a lot of it comes from these close losses.
And we've had a lot of them. The difference we're seeing from last season is now we're experiencing how close we can be to actually being a competent team.
They have introduced a number of new players this year to get their feet wet. We're also getting our feet wet.
I can see on the horizon where more of these close games start getting won. That's a plus.
My issues are as someone mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a sure thing with any of these young guys. But let's stop for a second and think, before this season did anyone every mention Bligh Madris? Marcano? Suwinski? Mitchell? I think we need to take a step back and realize, the guys that are supposed to be the next big thing are in AA and A ball.
I know there's a blowhard all about banging on BC on this board, but give the guy a chance. Who the heck starts a thing over with no budget and builds it overnight? NO ONE. His first draft had 5 rounds and no one he was able to watch play. He's had two full drafts now. Were you expecting them to make the jump from high school all star to MLB all star in two years?
Just my take. Some say it doesn't make a difference firing the manager of a bad team mid season. I disagree. I hear all the time managers only affect "X" amount of games a season. I think that's horse hockey, because teams like the Pirates have a wider margin of one bad decision affecting the outcome, and I think Shelton has repeatedly done this.
I have criticism of BC myself, first and foremost is Shelton, and secondly, this continued resting of players. I would love to hear him explain to me how Contreras couldn't be built up in the majors instead of AAA. I would love to know why Josh VanMeter has been on the roster all season, when there are clearly guys from AA up that can outplay him, or at least play to his level. What are they going to do with Cruz? That rifle arm aside, he looks like he plays shortstop on ice skates, and I don't think he's going to be the future there. This will be my last take on BC, I want to see him extend Reynolds. He came back down to earth, but he's still the face of the franchise no matter how much they want to make it someone else. I see the names on the backs of the jerseys, and when it comes to the current team, only Hayes is close.
You can make all the excuses you want and acknowledge your frustration with Shelton, but you nor anyone with any baseball knowledge can't overlook his sticking with Shelton. It's inexplicable and can leave me with only one conclusion. Cherington is just another one in a string of incompetent GM's. Anyone want to try and defend his keeping Shelton after his bizarre management of this team.
And we've had a lot of them. The difference we're seeing from last season is now we're experiencing how close we can be to actually being a competent team.
They have introduced a number of new players this year to get their feet wet. We're also getting our feet wet.
I can see on the horizon where more of these close games start getting won. That's a plus.
My issues are as someone mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a sure thing with any of these young guys. But let's stop for a second and think, before this season did anyone every mention Bligh Madris? Marcano? Suwinski? Mitchell? I think we need to take a step back and realize, the guys that are supposed to be the next big thing are in AA and A ball.
I know there's a blowhard all about banging on BC on this board, but give the guy a chance. Who the heck starts a thing over with no budget and builds it overnight? NO ONE. His first draft had 5 rounds and no one he was able to watch play. He's had two full drafts now. Were you expecting them to make the jump from high school all star to MLB all star in two years?
Just my take. Some say it doesn't make a difference firing the manager of a bad team mid season. I disagree. I hear all the time managers only affect "X" amount of games a season. I think that's horse hockey, because teams like the Pirates have a wider margin of one bad decision affecting the outcome, and I think Shelton has repeatedly done this.
I have criticism of BC myself, first and foremost is Shelton, and secondly, this continued resting of players. I would love to hear him explain to me how Contreras couldn't be built up in the majors instead of AAA. I would love to know why Josh VanMeter has been on the roster all season, when there are clearly guys from AA up that can outplay him, or at least play to his level. What are they going to do with Cruz? That rifle arm aside, he looks like he plays shortstop on ice skates, and I don't think he's going to be the future there. This will be my last take on BC, I want to see him extend Reynolds. He came back down to earth, but he's still the face of the franchise no matter how much they want to make it someone else. I see the names on the backs of the jerseys, and when it comes to the current team, only Hayes is close.
You can make all the excuses you want and acknowledge your frustration with Shelton, but you nor anyone with any baseball knowledge can't overlook his sticking with Shelton. It's inexplicable and can leave me with only one conclusion. Cherington is just another one in a string of incompetent GM's. Anyone want to try and defend his keeping Shelton after his bizarre management of this team.
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GermanTownship
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
After reading in the paper the negative, but, very truthful comments that were made about this JOKE of a team that we have, hopefully it even makes the national sports news. The RedSox announcers took care of that during last night’s game. This is basically the very same thing that I said when starting this, Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke. Trust me, the same negative comments from us will be exactly the same when giving our individual opinions. Thank goodness for college and pro football. At least we can cheer for Penn State, WVU, Pitt, and Steelers. As long as Nutting owns them, no improvements that will benefit this make up of future rosters will be coming. Just do your research on how Nutting operates his other endeavors, like Seven Springs and his news papers that he has purchased. All shoestring operations. Keep putting your money in Nutting’s pockets when you purchase tickets to games, and subscribing to networks that show mlb games. When the owners approved this last agreement with the players, with no base and max salary, in my opinion, it was over.
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DemDog
Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke
486A7D626E615B6078617C67667F0F0 wrote: After reading in the paper the negative, but, very truthful comments that were made about this JOKE of a team that we have, hopefully it even makes the national sports news.[highlight] The RedSox announcers took care of that during last night’s game.[/highlight] This is basically the very same thing that I said when starting this, Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke. Trust me, the same negative comments from us will be exactly the same when giving our individual opinions. Thank goodness for college and pro football. At least we can cheer for Penn State, WVU, Pitt, and Steelers. As long as Nutting owns them, no improvements that will benefit this make up of future rosters will be coming. Just do your research on how Nutting operates his other endeavors, like Seven Springs and his news papers that he has purchased. All shoestring operations. Keep putting your money in Nutting’s pockets when you purchase tickets to games, and subscribing to networks that show mlb games. When the owners approved this last agreement with the players, with no base and max salary, in my opinion, it was over.
Here is the article from the Trib about what the Sox announcers said. RedSox announcers thoughts on the Pirates
Here is the article from the Trib about what the Sox announcers said. RedSox announcers thoughts on the Pirates