1F39382F39295A0 wrote: Last season only 8 players had over 300 at bats at dh. 12 had 160 or more.
A couple of the older players earning high salaries weren't so good at it either.
Miguel Cabrea only had a 701 ops as did Mitch Moreland.
Shea Ohtani was best dh and 24 year old Yordan Alvarez was second best (getting close to minimum wage)
Stanton, Nelson Cruz and J.D. Martinez are the other highly paid dhers.
https://www.mlb.com/stats/?position=DH
The White Sox had 2 players who combined for 400 ABs at DH and neither did much of anything else. So that's 9 of 15 AL teams (60%) who had players specializing as a DH. Some teams prefer a DH who can play a position as needed but most use a one-dimensional player. There is no shortage of players who can hit but can't play defense at an acceptable MLB level. But in the AL the DH is never an afterthought as it has been in the NL during interleague games when the manager looks for someone who usually rides the bench and inserts them in the lineup.
even with those two players combing for 400 at bats there are still close to 200 more to spread around.
10 players were dh in 80 or more games. Is 60% really a high number? I don't think it is compared to other positions. 27 out of 32 had players at shortstop or third for 100 or more games. For second it was 32.
I don't like the dh but it has been around along enough that it isn't going to go away. To me, the rule having pitchers face 3 at least 3 batters is even worse than the dh. I don't look the dh but have become accustomed to it. Fans that dislike it is going to be a smaller and smaller proportion of fans.
My response was to your post which seemed (to me at least) to be suggesting that not many teams used a full time DH. But I don't think that's true since 9 of 15 teams did that, using the standard of 300 ABs that you cited. Only 6 AL teams didn't. I don't think comparing the DH to other positions is valid since the issue with the DH is whether teams employ one dimensional players. When it comes to defensive positions, teams employ various players due to platoons, super subs, injuries, players being called up or optioned. But none of those situations involve one dimensional players who only bat and don't play defense. Of course, I might have misinterpreted the point you were trying to make.
DH To National League
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
DH To National League
103D30212637206063520 wrote: Last season only 8 players had over 300 at bats at dh. 12 had 160 or more.
A couple of the older players earning high salaries weren't so good at it either.
Miguel Cabrea only had a 701 ops as did Mitch Moreland.
Shea Ohtani was best dh and 24 year old Yordan Alvarez was second best (getting close to minimum wage)
Stanton, Nelson Cruz and J.D. Martinez are the other highly paid dhers.
https://www.mlb.com/stats/?position=DH
The White Sox had 2 players who combined for 400 ABs at DH and neither did much of anything else. So that's 9 of 15 AL teams (60%) who had players specializing as a DH. Some teams prefer a DH who can play a position as needed but most use a one-dimensional player. There is no shortage of players who can hit but can't play defense at an acceptable MLB level. But in the AL the DH is never an afterthought as it has been in the NL during interleague games when the manager looks for someone who usually rides the bench and inserts them in the lineup.
even with those two players combing for 400 at bats there are still close to 200 more to spread around.
10 players were dh in 80 or more games. Is 60% really a high number? I don't think it is compared to other positions. 27 out of 32 had players at shortstop or third for 100 or more games. For second it was 32.
I don't like the dh but it has been around along enough that it isn't going to go away. To me, the rule having pitchers face 3 at least 3 batters is even worse than the dh. I don't look the dh but have become accustomed to it. Fans that dislike it is going to be a smaller and smaller proportion of fans.
My response was to your post which seemed (to me at least) to be suggesting that not many teams used a full time DH. But I don't think that's true since 9 of 15 teams did that, using the standard of 300 ABs that you cited. Only 6 AL teams didn't. I don't think comparing the DH to other positions is valid since the issue with the DH is whether teams employ one dimensional players. When it comes to defensive positions, teams employ various players due to platoons, super subs, injuries, players being called up or optioned. But none of those situations involve one dimensional players who only bat and don't play defense. Of course, I might have misinterpreted the point you were trying to make.
I wasn't really clear, I didn't think the standard of 300 at bats was a full time dh, I just used that number to show there wasn't a lot of full-time dh's. To me a full time player is somebody who gets or is very close to number of appearances to qualify for a batting title which reduces full time dh in 2021 to 6.
Also in AL last year I wouldn't say the DH's were one dimensional players.
Leaving out Ohtani, the one dimensional players are
Nelson Cruz, J.D. Martinez, Giancarlo Stanton (who I think mostly dh's to avoid injury not because he is one dimensional), Miguel Cabrera (who I think of is now like the 1973 Tommy Davis).
I'm not even sure that some of the players that were mostly dh's would be less valuable in the field than Polanco, Colin Moran or Yoshi were for the Bucs.
to me, the biggest problem with the dh is how it changes strategy, not that it creates more room for expensive and one dimensional players.
A couple of the older players earning high salaries weren't so good at it either.
Miguel Cabrea only had a 701 ops as did Mitch Moreland.
Shea Ohtani was best dh and 24 year old Yordan Alvarez was second best (getting close to minimum wage)
Stanton, Nelson Cruz and J.D. Martinez are the other highly paid dhers.
https://www.mlb.com/stats/?position=DH
The White Sox had 2 players who combined for 400 ABs at DH and neither did much of anything else. So that's 9 of 15 AL teams (60%) who had players specializing as a DH. Some teams prefer a DH who can play a position as needed but most use a one-dimensional player. There is no shortage of players who can hit but can't play defense at an acceptable MLB level. But in the AL the DH is never an afterthought as it has been in the NL during interleague games when the manager looks for someone who usually rides the bench and inserts them in the lineup.
even with those two players combing for 400 at bats there are still close to 200 more to spread around.
10 players were dh in 80 or more games. Is 60% really a high number? I don't think it is compared to other positions. 27 out of 32 had players at shortstop or third for 100 or more games. For second it was 32.
I don't like the dh but it has been around along enough that it isn't going to go away. To me, the rule having pitchers face 3 at least 3 batters is even worse than the dh. I don't look the dh but have become accustomed to it. Fans that dislike it is going to be a smaller and smaller proportion of fans.
My response was to your post which seemed (to me at least) to be suggesting that not many teams used a full time DH. But I don't think that's true since 9 of 15 teams did that, using the standard of 300 ABs that you cited. Only 6 AL teams didn't. I don't think comparing the DH to other positions is valid since the issue with the DH is whether teams employ one dimensional players. When it comes to defensive positions, teams employ various players due to platoons, super subs, injuries, players being called up or optioned. But none of those situations involve one dimensional players who only bat and don't play defense. Of course, I might have misinterpreted the point you were trying to make.
I wasn't really clear, I didn't think the standard of 300 at bats was a full time dh, I just used that number to show there wasn't a lot of full-time dh's. To me a full time player is somebody who gets or is very close to number of appearances to qualify for a batting title which reduces full time dh in 2021 to 6.
Also in AL last year I wouldn't say the DH's were one dimensional players.
Leaving out Ohtani, the one dimensional players are
Nelson Cruz, J.D. Martinez, Giancarlo Stanton (who I think mostly dh's to avoid injury not because he is one dimensional), Miguel Cabrera (who I think of is now like the 1973 Tommy Davis).
I'm not even sure that some of the players that were mostly dh's would be less valuable in the field than Polanco, Colin Moran or Yoshi were for the Bucs.
to me, the biggest problem with the dh is how it changes strategy, not that it creates more room for expensive and one dimensional players.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
DH To National League
092429383F2E39797A4B0 wrote: Last season only 8 players had over 300 at bats at dh. 12 had 160 or more.
A couple of the older players earning high salaries weren't so good at it either.
Miguel Cabrea only had a 701 ops as did Mitch Moreland.
Shea Ohtani was best dh and 24 year old Yordan Alvarez was second best (getting close to minimum wage)
Stanton, Nelson Cruz and J.D. Martinez are the other highly paid dhers.
https://www.mlb.com/stats/?position=DH
The White Sox had 2 players who combined for 400 ABs at DH and neither did much of anything else. So that's 9 of 15 AL teams (60%) who had players specializing as a DH. Some teams prefer a DH who can play a position as needed but most use a one-dimensional player. There is no shortage of players who can hit but can't play defense at an acceptable MLB level. But in the AL the DH is never an afterthought as it has been in the NL during interleague games when the manager looks for someone who usually rides the bench and inserts them in the lineup.
Carlos Stanton $29 million, Cruz $13 Million, Martinez $19 million. Don't believe you'll see teams like the Pirates or any low revenue teams have any players on their teams. Again it just help the union and the Large market team. Why would the Pirates agree to this, just stupid owners getting steam rolled by the elites.
A couple of the older players earning high salaries weren't so good at it either.
Miguel Cabrea only had a 701 ops as did Mitch Moreland.
Shea Ohtani was best dh and 24 year old Yordan Alvarez was second best (getting close to minimum wage)
Stanton, Nelson Cruz and J.D. Martinez are the other highly paid dhers.
https://www.mlb.com/stats/?position=DH
The White Sox had 2 players who combined for 400 ABs at DH and neither did much of anything else. So that's 9 of 15 AL teams (60%) who had players specializing as a DH. Some teams prefer a DH who can play a position as needed but most use a one-dimensional player. There is no shortage of players who can hit but can't play defense at an acceptable MLB level. But in the AL the DH is never an afterthought as it has been in the NL during interleague games when the manager looks for someone who usually rides the bench and inserts them in the lineup.
Carlos Stanton $29 million, Cruz $13 Million, Martinez $19 million. Don't believe you'll see teams like the Pirates or any low revenue teams have any players on their teams. Again it just help the union and the Large market team. Why would the Pirates agree to this, just stupid owners getting steam rolled by the elites.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
DH To National League
7C646661617667607D7C6A0F0 wrote: I find the whole DH thing puzzling. The players association is said to favor it because it creates one more job, but I'm not seeing that. Unless they increase the roster size (and I've seen nothing about that), they are still at 26. All they are doing is switching hitter for a pitcher. What teams will then do is make pitching (aside from the main guys) a part-time job - shuffling players from AAA when they need some innings, then back again while another guy comes up. There's already enough of that going on for me.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
DH To National League
2274627679637378756250777D71797C3E73100 wrote: I find the whole DH thing puzzling. The players association is said to favor it because it creates one more job, but I'm not seeing that. Unless they increase the roster size (and I've seen nothing about that), they are still at 26. All they are doing is switching hitter for a pitcher. What teams will then do is make pitching (aside from the main guys) a part-time job - shuffling players from AAA when they need some innings, then back again while another guy comes up. There's already enough of that going on for me.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
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Bobster21
DH To National League
597F7E697F6F1C0 wrote: I find the whole DH thing puzzling. The players association is said to favor it because it creates one more job, but I'm not seeing that. Unless they increase the roster size (and I've seen nothing about that), they are still at 26. All they are doing is switching hitter for a pitcher. What teams will then do is make pitching (aside from the main guys) a part-time job - shuffling players from AAA when they need some innings, then back again while another guy comes up. There's already enough of that going on for me.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
I think you meant 30 teams but your point is well taken. I think Nutting is very satisfied with the current system. He turns a profit with a fraction of the overhead of most other franchises.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
I think you meant 30 teams but your point is well taken. I think Nutting is very satisfied with the current system. He turns a profit with a fraction of the overhead of most other franchises.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
DH To National League
I'm not sure that BOB would be all that concerned about the Pirates' annual profit. As long as it's some figure that he's OK with, the franchise can get by. His income is predicated more from his other ventures.
I would think that his bigger focus would be on the franchise's value. That continues to escalate significantly as an investment, regardless of what Commissioner Manfred said about that recently.
I would think that his bigger focus would be on the franchise's value. That continues to escalate significantly as an investment, regardless of what Commissioner Manfred said about that recently.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
DH To National League
My understanding from media reports is that the owners was the side that pushed for the universal designated hitter.
As EC(I think) mentioned, they cashed a bargaining chip.
The owners didn't care that much about adopting the universal DH. It isn't a big deal to them. So, they were willing to agree to it because they wanted something so much bigger to them in return:
Getting the players to agree to expanded playoffs. A lot of revenue will be generated by it; not just by the additional teams that qualify for post-season play....but by just about all of the 30 clubs' fans thinking that their team stands some shot at making it. More fan interest past the TDL.
As EC(I think) mentioned, they cashed a bargaining chip.
The owners didn't care that much about adopting the universal DH. It isn't a big deal to them. So, they were willing to agree to it because they wanted something so much bigger to them in return:
Getting the players to agree to expanded playoffs. A lot of revenue will be generated by it; not just by the additional teams that qualify for post-season play....but by just about all of the 30 clubs' fans thinking that their team stands some shot at making it. More fan interest past the TDL.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
DH To National League
694F4E594F5F2C0 wrote: I find the whole DH thing puzzling. The players association is said to favor it because it creates one more job, but I'm not seeing that. Unless they increase the roster size (and I've seen nothing about that), they are still at 26. All they are doing is switching hitter for a pitcher. What teams will then do is make pitching (aside from the main guys) a part-time job - shuffling players from AAA when they need some innings, then back again while another guy comes up. There's already enough of that going on for me.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, [highlight]the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.[/highlight]
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
Especially an owner like Nutting, who knows nothing about baseball and only views the Pirates as a business, where profit is the priority. Imagine having a job in a huge corporation where you're in charge of one of 30 major departments, and even though that department fails continuously, you'll never be fired and you'll continue to share in the wealth of the company. Bob Nutting actually has a job just like that.
Good point. The players want the DH because some of the teams, the wealthy ones, will add an accomplished hitter, which will increase payments to players at least for those teams. They’re not concerned with better competition on the field. Their intent is to drive up salaries.
Just another example of the union and large market teams increasing their chances to win while small market teams become less competitive. [highlight]Why will the small market teams like the Pirates not stand their ground.[/highlight] Soooooo frustrating.
Because the small market teams have little to no power. And they're quite satisfied with their situation.
yep, [highlight]the Pirates and other smaller market owners don't care, they think things are fine. As far as they are concerned, there is nothing to fight the big market teams over.[/highlight]
With 32 teams they can even take the position that if every thing is equal my team will win every 32 years. Since they aren't equal it might take 40, and if we are incompetent (like the Pirates have been ) it might take 60.
Especially an owner like Nutting, who knows nothing about baseball and only views the Pirates as a business, where profit is the priority. Imagine having a job in a huge corporation where you're in charge of one of 30 major departments, and even though that department fails continuously, you'll never be fired and you'll continue to share in the wealth of the company. Bob Nutting actually has a job just like that.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
DH To National League
What a country!
When I die, I want to come back as BOB.
When I die, I want to come back as BOB.