705D50414657400003320 wrote: Extending Cutch, Marte would make my Top Ten.
Putting together the bullpen would be in there somewhere. That took some trading as I recall.
Taking the flier on J.A. Happ. Would anyone else at the time?
Cutting bait on Pedro Alvarez as early as he did. I expected that to drag on a bit longer in hopes...... Giving up on your own selection isn't a pleasant thing to do.
Taking Corey Dickerson for nothing, though he didn't hang very long. That might be around #15.
Give a GM enough time. They'll do some good things.
Happ was a desperation move. Burnett had to leave a game with elbow pain on July 30. That gave them 1 day to find a replacement before the TDL. Happ had been struggling for years and was having a very bad season for Seattle. But it was the best NH could do on short notice. But it turned out great.
I would disagree that they cut bait with Alvarez early. They had him thru 2015 and he was a FA in 2016. He had become such a liability on defense that Hurdle kept him out of the lineup in the 2015 WC game and started Rodriguez at 1B until Rodriguez's spot in the order came up in the bottom of the 3rd inning. Alvarez PH and stayed in the game but at least he was kept out of the field for 3 innings. (That was the day Rodriguez beat up the water cooler when he was PH for in the 3rd.) The Pirates simply ran out of places to hide Alvarez. He was a FA and could only be a DH, which precluded work in the NL. And even the AL teams showed little interest in him as a FA. He signed with the Orioles very late in ST the next year for no more than he had made in the final year of his Pirate contract and was used only as a part time player. The next 2 years he shuttled between the Orioles and AAA and that was it for his career.
Some teams probably would have held onto Alvarez under same circumstances. The Pirates could have been one. It was influenced by the money, of course.
Neal Huntington's greatest success
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Neal Huntington's greatest success
For me, Huntington’s greatest success was ending the 20 years of losing. That wasn’t the result of any one thing, or even big five things, but a whole lot of things that came together all at once. He should be commended for it, and was for the most part. He’s owed a debt of gratitude from all Pirates fans for eradicating us from that misery.
The mystery, the frustration, is what he did, or failed to do, after the 2015 season and until he was fired. I thought the idea was to build a minor league system that would replace the major league players as they aged or reached free agency. That didn’t happen, and trades made during that time actually hurt rather than helped.
In the end, he took the major league club out of the gutter, brought it near the top, and then drove it right back to the bottom, but not for the intention of rebuilding again. To me, the good he did was erased by what he did in his final years.
The mystery, the frustration, is what he did, or failed to do, after the 2015 season and until he was fired. I thought the idea was to build a minor league system that would replace the major league players as they aged or reached free agency. That didn’t happen, and trades made during that time actually hurt rather than helped.
In the end, he took the major league club out of the gutter, brought it near the top, and then drove it right back to the bottom, but not for the intention of rebuilding again. To me, the good he did was erased by what he did in his final years.
Neal Huntington's greatest success
3F697F6B647E6E65687F4D6A606C6461236E0D0 wrote: For me, Huntington’s greatest success was ending the 20 years of losing. That wasn’t the result of any one thing, or even big five things, but a whole lot of things that came together all at once. He should be commended for it, and was for the most part. He’s owed a debt of gratitude from all Pirates fans for eradicating us from that misery.
The mystery, the frustration, is what he did, or failed to do, after the 2015 season and until he was fired. I thought the idea was to build a minor league system that would replace the major league players as they aged or reached free agency. That didn’t happen, and trades made during that time actually hurt rather than helped.
In the end, he took the major league club out of the gutter, brought it near the top, and then drove it right back to the bottom, but not for the intention of rebuilding again. To me, the good he did was erased by what he did in his final years.
what I wonder about is whether NH knew the farm system was not going to produce or if he was surprised the way the team just went down hill in after 2015. Heck, who knows maybe he was surprised by 2013-15.
The mystery, the frustration, is what he did, or failed to do, after the 2015 season and until he was fired. I thought the idea was to build a minor league system that would replace the major league players as they aged or reached free agency. That didn’t happen, and trades made during that time actually hurt rather than helped.
In the end, he took the major league club out of the gutter, brought it near the top, and then drove it right back to the bottom, but not for the intention of rebuilding again. To me, the good he did was erased by what he did in his final years.
what I wonder about is whether NH knew the farm system was not going to produce or if he was surprised the way the team just went down hill in after 2015. Heck, who knows maybe he was surprised by 2013-15.
Neal Huntington's greatest success
Huntington was nothing great, but he is better than what we have today.
-
Bobster21
Neal Huntington's greatest success
667D707178747B150 wrote: Huntington was nothing great, but he is better than what we have today.
Why? Because BC didn't follow your plan to go for it all in 2021 with no money from Nutting and a terrible minor league system he inherited from NH?
I don't like how pathetic the 2021 MLB roster is. But at least I recognize that that is not the focus of the current GM. In 1 mini-season last year and less than a full season this year, the talent in the minors has been significantly improved. If the miserly Pirates are ever going to succeed, it's going to have to be with a GM who adds talent via the draft and trades. That was NH's weakness and so far seems to be BC's strength. It's too soon to know if BC will succeed or fail. But writing him off because he didn't instantly turn the MLB roster into a competitive team seems rather silly.
Why? Because BC didn't follow your plan to go for it all in 2021 with no money from Nutting and a terrible minor league system he inherited from NH?
I don't like how pathetic the 2021 MLB roster is. But at least I recognize that that is not the focus of the current GM. In 1 mini-season last year and less than a full season this year, the talent in the minors has been significantly improved. If the miserly Pirates are ever going to succeed, it's going to have to be with a GM who adds talent via the draft and trades. That was NH's weakness and so far seems to be BC's strength. It's too soon to know if BC will succeed or fail. But writing him off because he didn't instantly turn the MLB roster into a competitive team seems rather silly.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Neal Huntington's greatest success
574C414049454A240 wrote: Huntington was nothing great, but he is better than what we have today.
If only I could believe that you believe that.
If only I could believe that you believe that.
Neal Huntington's greatest success
0E584E5A554F5F54594E7C5B515D5550125F3C0 wrote: Huntington was nothing great, but he is better than what we have today.
If only I could believe that you believe that.
___
How many last place finishes will it take for you to believe it?
If only I could believe that you believe that.
___
How many last place finishes will it take for you to believe it?
-
ArnoldRothstein
Neal Huntington's greatest success
They spent more money on the draft than anyone else in the period 2008-2011. In 2011 they spent more money than any team had ever spent on a draft, I think paying the most ever for one player (Cole), and the most for a player outside of the first round (Bell). Many analysts thought the draft of Bell was just intended to be used as leverage against Cole, because Bell was seen as an incredibly hard sign, but they signed both.
The Pirates and Bell were Exhibit A in MLB and the players' union's decision to make it impossible to compete by spending a lot of money on amateur players. You can't know what would have happened if that avenue wasn't closed.
Prior to 2016:
NH was praised for his draft tactics and negotiations to make hard signings;
As DL signings McCutchen, Walker, Marte, Hughes, and Watson made contributions, they were cited as examples of NH's development acumen, who would not have fully developed under the prior regime;
As minor leaguers were dealt to acquire players to plug holes, none of them ever did anything, and this was cited as NH's sagacity in trading only the minor leaguers who weren't developing.
The Pirates and Bell were Exhibit A in MLB and the players' union's decision to make it impossible to compete by spending a lot of money on amateur players. You can't know what would have happened if that avenue wasn't closed.
Prior to 2016:
NH was praised for his draft tactics and negotiations to make hard signings;
As DL signings McCutchen, Walker, Marte, Hughes, and Watson made contributions, they were cited as examples of NH's development acumen, who would not have fully developed under the prior regime;
As minor leaguers were dealt to acquire players to plug holes, none of them ever did anything, and this was cited as NH's sagacity in trading only the minor leaguers who weren't developing.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Neal Huntington's greatest success
7C676A6B626E610F0 wrote: Huntington was nothing great, but he is better than what we have today.
If only I could believe that you believe that.
___
How many last place finishes will it take for you to believe it?
Last place by 8 1/2 games. To another team that's not exactly trying, either. That's bad.
If only I could believe that you believe that.
___
How many last place finishes will it take for you to believe it?
Last place by 8 1/2 games. To another team that's not exactly trying, either. That's bad.
-
BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Neal Huntington's greatest success
012C21303726317172430 wrote: Extending Cutch, Marte would make my Top Ten.
Putting together the bullpen would be in there somewhere. That took some trading as I recall.
Taking the flier on J.A. Happ. Would anyone else at the time?
Cutting bait on Pedro Alvarez as early as he did. I expected that to drag on a bit longer in hopes...... Giving up on your own selection isn't a pleasant thing to do.
Taking Corey Dickerson for nothing, though he didn't hang very long. That might be around #15.
Give a GM enough time. They'll do some good things.
Happ was a desperation move. Burnett had to leave a game with elbow pain on July 30. That gave them 1 day to find a replacement before the TDL. Happ had been struggling for years and was having a very bad season for Seattle. But it was the best NH could do on short notice. But it turned out great.
I would disagree that they cut bait with Alvarez early. They had him thru 2015 and he was a FA in 2016. He had become such a liability on defense that Hurdle kept him out of the lineup in the 2015 WC game and started Rodriguez at 1B until Rodriguez's spot in the order came up in the bottom of the 3rd inning. Alvarez PH and stayed in the game but at least he was kept out of the field for 3 innings. (That was the day Rodriguez beat up the water cooler when he was PH for in the 3rd.) The Pirates simply ran out of places to hide Alvarez. He was a FA and could only be a DH, which precluded work in the NL. And even the AL teams showed little interest in him as a FA. He signed with the Orioles very late in ST the next year for no more than he had made in the final year of his Pirate contract and was used only as a part time player. The next 2 years he shuttled between the Orioles and AAA and that was it for his career.
It is not like Happ was the only pitcher available on July 31. There were many others. Dan Haren was traded the same day for nothing.
They did not really slow play moving on from Alvarez. He was perfectly fine defensively until he messed up his foot and played hurt in 2014. He was not able to play the field anymore, but continued to hit fine in 2015 and 2016. I cant blame the Pirates for holding on to a guy and hoping injuries would heal.
Putting together the bullpen would be in there somewhere. That took some trading as I recall.
Taking the flier on J.A. Happ. Would anyone else at the time?
Cutting bait on Pedro Alvarez as early as he did. I expected that to drag on a bit longer in hopes...... Giving up on your own selection isn't a pleasant thing to do.
Taking Corey Dickerson for nothing, though he didn't hang very long. That might be around #15.
Give a GM enough time. They'll do some good things.
Happ was a desperation move. Burnett had to leave a game with elbow pain on July 30. That gave them 1 day to find a replacement before the TDL. Happ had been struggling for years and was having a very bad season for Seattle. But it was the best NH could do on short notice. But it turned out great.
I would disagree that they cut bait with Alvarez early. They had him thru 2015 and he was a FA in 2016. He had become such a liability on defense that Hurdle kept him out of the lineup in the 2015 WC game and started Rodriguez at 1B until Rodriguez's spot in the order came up in the bottom of the 3rd inning. Alvarez PH and stayed in the game but at least he was kept out of the field for 3 innings. (That was the day Rodriguez beat up the water cooler when he was PH for in the 3rd.) The Pirates simply ran out of places to hide Alvarez. He was a FA and could only be a DH, which precluded work in the NL. And even the AL teams showed little interest in him as a FA. He signed with the Orioles very late in ST the next year for no more than he had made in the final year of his Pirate contract and was used only as a part time player. The next 2 years he shuttled between the Orioles and AAA and that was it for his career.
It is not like Happ was the only pitcher available on July 31. There were many others. Dan Haren was traded the same day for nothing.
They did not really slow play moving on from Alvarez. He was perfectly fine defensively until he messed up his foot and played hurt in 2014. He was not able to play the field anymore, but continued to hit fine in 2015 and 2016. I cant blame the Pirates for holding on to a guy and hoping injuries would heal.