OnlyBucs

2C272F2326273C797F083129202727662B27480 wrote: BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.



Kang-$3 million

Freese-$4.25 million

Rodriguez-$5.75 million



$13 million



I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!



Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.



http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/


If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017).  His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.


Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.
Sure they want him back, but I also think they know he isn't really coming back.

You don't think the Pirates hope that Kang is back and is lying about it?  This is one of my points.  You don't like what you are hearing/reading, so you think it is a lie. 



I think they want Kang back more than anything.  He is a big part of the team and solves a hole.

5E555D5154554E0B0D7A435B5255551459553A0 wrote: [highlight]I find it hard to believe they are trying to lose.  Sorry, I don't buy that.[/highlight]



The last five years or so I understood the plan and could predict the future some what.  I am not saying I agreed with every plan, but I at least understood it.  Right now, I don't know the direction.  There are a lot of things that need answered.  This is a big off season to determine the direction, in my opinion. 



I don't always believe "GM speak".  I want to see the moves, the action.  Talk is just talk.  I do find it funny when people believe the GM for their narrative and not all the time.  It is very early in the off season.  I am not worried yet.


See that Dog you missed the point in the discussion. You maybe correct that no GM wants to loose unless you are tearing down the team to rebuild. But in the Buccos case they are not trying to rebuild but instead are trying to spend a little money as possible. Thus they are going to loose and the GM speak is just crap. The fans are realizing what the true aim of NH and Nutting McCheap are doing.



I am going to boycott some this year. Will only make games when my daughter and grandkids are in town from Seattle and perhaps one game with VAPirate to keep my streak of consecutive seasons going. Nothing more. Will spend my money on going to the WV Black Bears games.

03222A032820470 wrote: [highlight]I find it hard to believe they are trying to lose.  Sorry, I don't buy that.[/highlight]



The last five years or so I understood the plan and could predict the future some what.  I am not saying I agreed with every plan, but I at least understood it.  Right now, I don't know the direction.  There are a lot of things that need answered.  This is a big off season to determine the direction, in my opinion. 



I don't always believe "GM speak".  I want to see the moves, the action.  Talk is just talk.  I do find it funny when people believe the GM for their narrative and not all the time.  It is very early in the off season.  I am not worried yet.


See that Dog you missed the point in the discussion.  You maybe correct that no GM wants to loose unless you are tearing down the team to rebuild.  But in the Buccos case they are not trying to rebuild but instead are trying to spend a little money as possible.  Thus they are going to loose and the GM speak is just crap.  The fans are realizing what the true aim of NH and Nutting McCheap are doing. 



I am going to boycott some this year.  Will only make games when my daughter and grandkids are in town from Seattle and perhaps one game with VAPirate to keep my streak of consecutive seasons going.  Nothing more.  Will spend my money on going to the WV Black Bears games.


I didn't miss any points. IABucFan even responded with: "Fine. Fair enough, I can buy that. Like you, I don't think they are TRYING to lose."



So, he understood as I did too. And you even said I was correct?

I agree, notes34.



I sure hope Rodriguez isn't the plan. He and Freese are perfect bench players. Action will speak louder than words this off season. I don't think he is lying and not hoping for Kang to return. This is a whole different team with Kang back in my opinion.

3338303C3938236660172E363F3838793438570 wrote: BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.



Kang-$3 million

Freese-$4.25 million

Rodriguez-$5.75 million



$13 million



I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!



Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.



http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/


If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017).  His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.


Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.


You don't think the Pirates hope that Kang is back and is lying about it?  This is one of my points.  You don't like what you are hearing/reading, so you think it is a lie. 



I think they want Kang back more than anything.  He is a big part of the team and solves a hole.




Not at all what I'm saying. Here's what we know:



1. The Pirates have repeatedly said that they hope Jung Ho Kang is back playing third base for them next year. In fact, NH said as much in the link I posted above from MLB.com.



2. Regardless of the status of JHK, Freese and Rodriguez are under contract next year.



Given that (1) above is true, the following two possibilities exist:



EITHER:



(1a): The Pirates are telling the truth, and hope to have JHK back next year, which means they also hope to pay him his $3 million salary.



OR:



(1b): The Pirates are lying and do not hope, or believe, that JHK will play for them next year.



If (1a) is true, and we already know that (2) above is true, then the Pirates will be on the hook for $13 million next year for the third base position/super utility. In which case, they can't say that Kang's salary was "reallocated" when acquiring Rodriguez.



If (1b) is true, then the Pirates are lying, by definition.



Nowhere did I say that I think they are lying. I said that one of two alternatives are true, neither of which vindicate the way the Pirates have handled this mess. I could give them a pass last year, as, frankly, Freese was about the best you could do given the circumstances. But, that was last year. That excuse doesn't fly this year, at least, not if you're actually trying to field a competitive MLB team.

I don't know. I can "hope" that I find a big pile of money laying in the woods this afternoon. That doesn't mean I'm banking on it, it doesn't mean I think it's going to happen, and it still doesn't mean I'm lying when I say I hope it happens.

IABucFan, I think you are looking at it all wrong.



If Kang comes back, he is the starter. That doesn't mean they will have $13 million tied up at 3B because Rodriguez and Freese will also play other positions. Rodriguez would probably be the back up SS, 2B and an outfield option. Rodriguez and Freese might both back up 1B too.



Even if you want to tie players together per position, tie Rodriguez and Bell together. Now 1B is under $5 million.



The Pirates want Kang back. Period. They need Kang back too.

The Indians might deal Jason Kipnis. He can play the outfield too.

474C44484D4C571214635A424B4C4C0D404C230 wrote: IABucFan, I think you are looking at it all wrong.



If Kang comes back, he is the starter.  That doesn't mean they will have $13 million tied up at 3B because Rodriguez and Freese will also play other positions.  Rodriguez would probably be the back up SS, 2B and an outfield option.  Rodriguez and Freese might both back up 1B too.



Even if you want to tie players together per position, tie Rodriguez and Bell together.  Now 1B is under $5 million.



The Pirates want Kang back.  Period.  They need Kang back too.


Dog, if that's the case, then the situation is even more idiotic, because they are paying $5.75 million to Rodriguez to be a super-sub. Let's hypothetically say that Kang does come back. Who's the odd man out? Osuna? Frazier? Could either one not replicate the production that Rodriguez will offer for far less cost? Could his salary then not be allocated to another position of need?



The point is that the Pirates consistently cry poverty, but consistently throw money away. It's like they're content to sign a vet to sit on the bench, but not start. Seems to me that is a silly way to allocate funds and failing to focus on proper priorities.

54666A6A7E4C6F666B6E6166070 wrote: I don't know.  I can "hope" that I find a big pile of money laying in the woods this afternoon.  That doesn't mean I'm banking on it, it doesn't mean I think it's going to happen, and it still doesn't mean I'm lying when I say I hope it happens. 


Yeah...I don't think the analogy holds. For starters, if the Pirates "find" Kang, they don't "find" $3 million. In fact, they are on the hook to PAY $3 million more in annual salary, which is precisely what is being debated...that the Pirates can afford to pay BOTH Kang and Rodriguez, because regardless of whatever happens with Kang, Rodriguez is on the payroll next year. And the Pirates consistently say that they want Kang back.