Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

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rucker59@gmail.com

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by rucker59@gmail.com »

“I didn’t think we had the commitment to winning,” he said. “We had somebody saying, ‘This is the way to end up the year without having to write a check,’ or ‘This is the way to end the year with having a few dollars in the bank.’ I thought that was taking the wrong direction.” Ron Burkle



All I can say is, you gotta read this article. What a contrast! This man recognizes what ownership of a sports franchise is about, the obligation to the community and the players. And how to build real wealth at the same time.



He rejects the idea that a professional sports teams is to be run to maximize the most annual return.



From reports, Bob Nutting refused to sale the team to Mario and Ron. That is certainly his right, but it may be the greediest thing Nutting has done.



When the Pens brought the Stanley Cup into the Pirates clubhouse, it should have shamed Bob Nutting, not because his team has never won a WS, but because his players will never be given the opportunity to take their best shot at winning one; they could only look and touch someone else's.



Nutting could have received a hero's welcome at a parade the size of Texas; he'd rather bank another buck. Every Pirate fan weeps at what has been stolen from the public trust.



https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/ron-burkle/
JollyRoger
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by JollyRoger »

VA-you beat me to the punch by posting this article. As I read this my thoughts were just like yours. Imagine if Burkle had bought the Pirates; what could have been!

This is a must read for everybody on this board and an example of how a franchise should be run.
johnfluharty

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by johnfluharty »

The article says they are a profitable team. That's a pretty significant point. That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships. That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info. He has just not been successful in doing so. Is it harder to do in baseball? I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place. Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do? I doubt it. I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball. Baseball is broken.


SammyKhalifa
Posts: 3642
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by SammyKhalifa »

Before the strike that imposed the salary cap, the Penguins were on the way out the door to Kansas City.



Cool article though. Thanks.
BucsFaninGA

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by BucsFaninGA »

Pens are a winner through and through while the Bucs are the opposite. Sad indeed...While I love baseball, I always have an optimistic attitude, but ( 60yrs old) I am beginning to wish someone else would buy our baseball team. I have absolutely no faith period in the Pirates ever winning with Nutting as the owner....



Beat'em Bucs
Bobster21

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by Bobster21 »

7C797E78707A637E7764626F160 wrote: The article says they are a profitable team.  That's a pretty significant point.  That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships.  That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info.  He has just not been successful in doing so.  Is it harder to do in baseball?  I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place.  Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do?  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball.  Baseball is broken.


Yes, you can't compare MLB to salary cap sports. When teams can't succeed by consistently outspending opponents, they have to rely on being well-run organizations. Prime example: Cleveland Browns in NFL. They can spend as much as anyone else but always make poor personnel choices.



We've seen smaller market teams succeed in MLB but for brief windows. When these teams are put together smartly and things break right for them, they can win a WS. But the players who got them there become too expensive to keep and they must rebuild. The Marlins did that a few times. The Pirates seemed to be on the right path from 2013-15 but still wouldn't raise payroll above MLB's bottom feeders. They tried to get by with people like Ike Davis at 1B and Locke and Morton in the rotation. And after a 98 win season, they lowered payroll these past 2 seasons while leaving gaping holes (Jaso at 1B, Niese, Vogelsong pitching in 2016 and not acquiring a 5th starter or replacing Kang and Marte this year).



The NHL salary cap gives the Penguins an advantage not available to Nutting. But that makes it all the more vital that the Pirates seize the chances they get. And that's where the owner gets in the way with a refusal to fill holes by increasing payroll even to a modest mid-range figure. I'm sure Nutting wants to win. But his plan seems to be to have NH figure out some way to put together a championship team on the cheap. NH did well putting together competing teams 2013-15 but there's only so much you can do when someone doesn't work out and you can't replace him with an impact player.
rucker59@gmail.com

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by rucker59@gmail.com »

6D686F69616B726F6675737E070 wrote: The article says they are a profitable team.  That's a pretty significant point.  That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships.  That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info.  He has just not been successful in doing so.  Is it harder to do in baseball?  I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place.  Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do?  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball.  Baseball is broken.






Baseball is a money machine for owners, and there is no comparison between the revenues available to MLB verses NHL.



It's impossible to know much of the local numbers, national ## are published: MLB hit $10B in 2016. (There are other sources of revenue though "spinoffs" not reporting under MLB. NHL hit $4B. Locally, the Pirates tv deal is estimated to be ~double the Pens. And the value of the franchise is estimated to be about double.



Making money is not a problem in the MLB. There's much more in MLB.






rucker59@gmail.com

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by rucker59@gmail.com »

587578696E7F68282B1A0 wrote: The article says they are a profitable team.  That's a pretty significant point.  That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships.  That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info.  He has just not been successful in doing so.  Is it harder to do in baseball?  I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place.  Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do?  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball.  Baseball is broken.


Yes, you can't compare MLB to salary cap sports. When teams can't succeed by consistently outspending opponents, they have to rely on being well-run organizations. Prime example: Cleveland Browns in NFL. They can spend as much as anyone else but always make poor personnel choices.



We've seen smaller market teams succeed in MLB but for brief windows. When these teams are put together smartly and things break right for them, they can win a WS. But the players who got them there become too expensive to keep and they must rebuild. The Marlins did that a few times. The Pirates seemed to be on the right path from 2013-15 but still wouldn't raise payroll above MLB's bottom feeders. They tried to get by with people like Ike Davis at 1B and Locke and Morton in the rotation. And after a 98 win season, they lowered payroll these past 2 seasons while leaving gaping holes (Jaso at 1B, Niese, Vogelsong pitching in 2016 and not acquiring a 5th starter or replacing Kang and Marte this year).



The NHL salary cap gives the Penguins an advantage not available to Nutting. But that makes it all the more vital that the Pirates seize the chances they get. And that's where the owner gets in the way with a refusal to fill holes by increasing payroll even to a modest mid-range figure. I'm sure Nutting wants to win. But his plan seems to be to have NH figure out some way to put together a championship team on the cheap. NH did well putting together competing teams 2013-15 but there's only so much you can do when someone doesn't work out and you can't replace him with an impact player.   




I'm beginning to think salary cap is a bit of a red-herring: the much smaller revenue NHL had a cap of $73M in 2016. The Pens spent to the cap. Just because the Dodgers spend $200M doesn't mean the Pirates couldn't spend $140M. Or at least $120M. In fact, KC and St Louis and Cleveland are all spending within that "NHL salary cap".



The fact there is no cap does not explain a payroll that would be well below a cap if there was one in place. (If NHL cap is $73m for 2016, MLB would likely be in the $125m -$150M range; if the Pens can spend to their cap why can't the Pirates spend to at least the low end of a theoretical cap?). The article pretty much tells us why - you have to be driven to win the most games not bank the most money.
SammyKhalifa
Posts: 3642
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by SammyKhalifa »

3631272F2136717D042329252D286A272B29440 wrote: The article says they are a profitable team.  That's a pretty significant point.  That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships.  That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info.  He has just not been successful in doing so.  Is it harder to do in baseball?  I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place.  Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do?  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball.  Baseball is broken.


Yes, you can't compare MLB to salary cap sports. When teams can't succeed by consistently outspending opponents, they have to rely on being well-run organizations. Prime example: Cleveland Browns in NFL. They can spend as much as anyone else but always make poor personnel choices.



We've seen smaller market teams succeed in MLB but for brief windows. When these teams are put together smartly and things break right for them, they can win a WS. But the players who got them there become too expensive to keep and they must rebuild. The Marlins did that a few times. The Pirates seemed to be on the right path from 2013-15 but still wouldn't raise payroll above MLB's bottom feeders. They tried to get by with people like Ike Davis at 1B and Locke and Morton in the rotation. And after a 98 win season, they lowered payroll these past 2 seasons while leaving gaping holes (Jaso at 1B, Niese, Vogelsong pitching in 2016 and not acquiring a 5th starter or replacing Kang and Marte this year).



The NHL salary cap gives the Penguins an advantage not available to Nutting. But that makes it all the more vital that the Pirates seize the chances they get. And that's where the owner gets in the way with a refusal to fill holes by increasing payroll even to a modest mid-range figure. I'm sure Nutting wants to win. But his plan seems to be to have NH figure out some way to put together a championship team on the cheap. NH did well putting together competing teams 2013-15 but there's only so much you can do when someone doesn't work out and you can't replace him with an impact player.   




I'm beginning to think salary cap is a bit of a red-herring: the much smaller revenue NHL had a cap of $73M in 2016.  The Pens spent to the cap.  Just because the Dodgers spend $200M doesn't mean the Pirates couldn't spend $140M.  Or at least $120M.  In fact, KC and St Louis and Cleveland are all spending within that "NHL salary cap". 



The fact there is no cap does not explain a payroll that would be well below a cap if there was one in place.  (If NHL cap is $73m for 2016, MLB would likely be in the $125m -$150M range; if the Pens can spend to their cap why can't the Pirates spend to at least the low end of a  theoretical cap?).  The article pretty much tells us why - you have to be driven to win the most games not bank the most money.




A lot of leagues with a cap also have a floor, and better revenue sharing that go along with it. 



It also means that one team couldn't sign all of the expensive talent.  They'd be limited and the players could spread out more.  It would also probably keep individual salaries down making it more likely. 



Maybe we're getting caught up in the Nuttings and peoples' opinions of them and how the Pirates run things/ how well of a job they've done executing their jobs.  Let's look at the Royals instead, compared to say the Cubs.  Both teams have excellent FOs.  Both teams have made shrewd deals, developed guys, etc.  Bot teams made it to the top. Yet one team is destined to have to sell off players they can't afford (they're still a good team but it's already in progress) while another can basically do what they want.  Is this fair?  Should the Royals have the same opportunity to build a dynasty as the Cubs, or the Dodgers, or the PENGUINS? 



I know that there are plenty of issues around the Pirates and management; and while those are real we should also not let that mask the real underlying issue. 
rucker59@gmail.com

Rob Burkle article: Stunning contrast to Pirate ownership

Post by rucker59@gmail.com »

7D4F43435765464F4247484F2E0 wrote: The article says they are a profitable team.  That's a pretty significant point.  That means they are a profitable team that also wins championships.  That is exactly what Nutting is trying to turn the Pirates franchise info.  He has just not been successful in doing so.  Is it harder to do in baseball?  I don't know how well balanced hockey is financially but I do know their is some kind of salary cap in place.  Is there a team out there that spends double what the Pens do?  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'll get bashed for this little nibble of Nutting support, but winning in hockey is not the same as winning in baseball.  Baseball is broken.


Yes, you can't compare MLB to salary cap sports. When teams can't succeed by consistently outspending opponents, they have to rely on being well-run organizations. Prime example: Cleveland Browns in NFL. They can spend as much as anyone else but always make poor personnel choices.



We've seen smaller market teams succeed in MLB but for brief windows. When these teams are put together smartly and things break right for them, they can win a WS. But the players who got them there become too expensive to keep and they must rebuild. The Marlins did that a few times. The Pirates seemed to be on the right path from 2013-15 but still wouldn't raise payroll above MLB's bottom feeders. They tried to get by with people like Ike Davis at 1B and Locke and Morton in the rotation. And after a 98 win season, they lowered payroll these past 2 seasons while leaving gaping holes (Jaso at 1B, Niese, Vogelsong pitching in 2016 and not acquiring a 5th starter or replacing Kang and Marte this year).



The NHL salary cap gives the Penguins an advantage not available to Nutting. But that makes it all the more vital that the Pirates seize the chances they get. And that's where the owner gets in the way with a refusal to fill holes by increasing payroll even to a modest mid-range figure. I'm sure Nutting wants to win. But his plan seems to be to have NH figure out some way to put together a championship team on the cheap. NH did well putting together competing teams 2013-15 but there's only so much you can do when someone doesn't work out and you can't replace him with an impact player.   




I'm beginning to think salary cap is a bit of a red-herring: the much smaller revenue NHL had a cap of $73M in 2016.  The Pens spent to the cap.  Just because the Dodgers spend $200M doesn't mean the Pirates couldn't spend $140M.  Or at least $120M.  In fact, KC and St Louis and Cleveland are all spending within that "NHL salary cap". 



The fact there is no cap does not explain a payroll that would be well below a cap if there was one in place.  (If NHL cap is $73m for 2016, MLB would likely be in the $125m -$150M range; if the Pens can spend to their cap why can't the Pirates spend to at least the low end of a  theoretical cap?).  The article pretty much tells us why - you have to be driven to win the most games not bank the most money.




A lot of leagues with a cap also have a floor, and better revenue sharing that go along with it. 



It also means that one team couldn't sign all of the expensive talent.  They'd be limited and the players could spread out more.  It would also probably keep individual salaries down making it more likely. 



Maybe we're getting caught up in the Nuttings and peoples' opinions of them and how the Pirates run things/ how well of a job they've done executing their jobs.  Let's look at the Royals instead, compared to say the Cubs.  Both teams have excellent FOs.  Both teams have made shrewd deals, developed guys, etc.  Bot teams made it to the top.  Yet one team is destined to have to sell off players they can't afford (they're still a good team but it's already in progress) while another can basically do what they want.  Is this fair?  Should the Royals have the same opportunity to build a dynasty as the Cubs, or the Dodgers, or the PENGUINS? 



I know that there are plenty of issues around the Pirates and management; and while those are real we should also not let that mask the real underlying issue. 


Good post.  I could dig at the point that KC can and DOES spend to win even if they ultimately sell-off, but your points are good.



But money is a secondary issue for me in posting the article, it's Burkle's attitude about owning a professional sports team. Maybe Nutting is outlier, maybe it's Buckle, regardless it's exciting to read about Ron's thoughts on team ownership. 



Is it easier to win a cup in the NHL?  I don't know, but I bet it would be easier for the Pirates to win a WS if Neal could say the same as Morehouse - "if I need a piece to make the team better I can walk in and ask, and I've never been told 'no'". 




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