527F72636475622221100 wrote: I think about that all the time. All of the moronic, inexcusable, ridiculous losses. I'm estimating there have been about 8. You're right Freddy, if we just had 4 of them back, we'd be 10 games over .500 and in the race. It's a thin line between success & failure in MLB.
People like to point to that LA Clay Holmes start as a given away game because of the awful start. At the same time (despite the finger pointing and laughing about "rest"), that was right about when the rotation started this great run. Coincidence? I don't know but nobody does. But does that count as a "given away" game or should we credit several more in the win column because of a management decision? I think this and many moves are kind of a Rorschach test, where fans see what they wanted to see anyway.
I dunno, Sammy. Here's what I saw:
Prior to the Holmes start, the starting pitchers were going well. The rotation prior to that game was:
Williams: 5 IP/2 runs. Bucs lost 2-1.
Musgrove: 7 IP/2 runs. Bucs lost 2-0.
Taillon: 9 IP/2 runs. Bucs won 10-2.
Archer: 5 IP/2 runs. Bucs won 4-3.
Nova: 6 IP/2 runs. Bucs won 10-5.
At that point they had won 3 straight, were 4 over .500 and were 4 games behind the 2nd WC team. Then NH recalled Holmes for that start, explaining that move had been planned for a long time. So that's on him, not Hurdle. Anyway, Holmes and Sadler had given up 10 runs by the 4th inning. Bucs attempted a late comeback with 7 runs in the final 3 innings but couldn't make up the difference and lost 13-10. The next day Williams (who hadn't pitched in Colorado) continued his strong 2nd half going 7 scoreless innings in a 4-0 win. They needed a shutout that day because they scored just 1 run other than 1 fortunate swing by Bell for a rare 3-run HR. Then a 3-11 skid started with the Pirates scoring just 37 runs in those 14 games (2.6 per) and 9 of those came in 1 game so in 13 games of that 14 game skid they averaged 2.2 per game.
So the pitchers were doing well before the Holmes start. I wonder if the team became demoralized watching mgt punt on a game when they were going strong and even scoring 10 runs in a futile effort to make up for the horrible pitching that day from Holmes and Sadler. Because suddenly the hitting went south. I could credit the extra rest for the pitchers if it created a brief upsurge but they had done well before Holmes and have been consistently good since. Hard to think they are still benefiting from that 1 extra day off. IMHO, it's more likely that game had more to do with the 3-11 skid that followed (due to demoralized hitters) than with the good pitching that followed, which was already evident before Holmes. Or it could all be coincidence with nothing that happened afterward being effected by that Holmes game. But we'll never really know so it's like you said Sammy, we see what we want to see. But it sure gives food for thought.
If the two pitchers weren't so terrible that day (not necessarily great, just not all-time-bad) we probably won't really think much of that whole episode one way or the other.
Didn't the hitting go in the tank around the time that Dickerson and Marte both got hurt? Who knows.
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
I realize every team can do this, and we've won our fair share this year that should have been L's, but these games stick out in my mind:
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
Either way they're doing better than I expected so far.
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maher.timothy20@gm
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
4F47447365406768060 wrote: I realize every team can do this, and we've won our fair share this year that should have been L's, but these games stick out in my mind:
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
You forgot the one in Arizona. June 11. Pirates up 5-0 in the 7th. This is the game where Musgrove plunked a guy. D-backs score 5 in the 7th, 4 in the 8th. That game sucked.
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
You forgot the one in Arizona. June 11. Pirates up 5-0 in the 7th. This is the game where Musgrove plunked a guy. D-backs score 5 in the 7th, 4 in the 8th. That game sucked.
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
3438313C2B772D3034362D31206B69193E34590 wrote: I realize every team can do this, and we've won our fair share this year that should have been L's, but these games stick out in my mind:
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
You forgot the one in Arizona. June 11. Pirates up 5-0 in the 7th. This is the game where Musgrove plunked a guy. D-backs score 5 in the 7th, 4 in the 8th. That game sucked.
Oh yeah...forgot about that one.
May 20 vs. Padres...Bucs enter the ninth with a one run lead, give up four runs in the top of the ninth, and lose 8-5
May 27 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 4-1 going to the seventh inning, give up two in the seventh, three in the eighth, and lose 6-4.
May 29 vs. Cubs...I don't get too worked up about this one, but still...Bucs are up 4-2 after five, 4-3 after six, lose 8-6.
May 31 vs. Cards...Bucs are up 8-5 going into the ninth inning, give up five in the bottom of the ninth, and lose 10-8.
Flip these four games around, each of which were quite winnable, and we have an 80-70 record. And oh, by the way, two of these games were against St. Louis, so their record would be 82-70, rather than 84-68. We'd be half a game behind St. Louis, 1.5 behind Colorado for the second WC.
In hindsight, I didn't really like the idea of starting Holmes. But, I don't look at that game as a turning point in the season. Again, I realize every team can do this, and the Pirates have won a share of games they probably should have lost. Still though, not all that far fetched to think the Buccos could be right in the thick of this race.
You forgot the one in Arizona. June 11. Pirates up 5-0 in the 7th. This is the game where Musgrove plunked a guy. D-backs score 5 in the 7th, 4 in the 8th. That game sucked.
Oh yeah...forgot about that one.
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Bobster21
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
Taillon and Williams both have a chance to win 15 games. Pirates haven't had a year with more than one 15-game winner since 1991 (Smiley 20, Z. Smith 16, Drabek 15).
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CarolinaBucco
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
The game that still bothers me ...
We lead the Brewers by 2 in the 15th. The Brewers have to send a pitcher to the plate with 2 outs. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS GET THE PITCHER AND GAME OVER. Of course we WALK THE PITCHER and proceed to lose.
And then of course that stretch where we lost about 7 games in a row by a 1-0 score was somewhat of a killer as well.
We lead the Brewers by 2 in the 15th. The Brewers have to send a pitcher to the plate with 2 outs. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS GET THE PITCHER AND GAME OVER. Of course we WALK THE PITCHER and proceed to lose.
And then of course that stretch where we lost about 7 games in a row by a 1-0 score was somewhat of a killer as well.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
4361726F6C696E61427563636F000 wrote: The game that still bothers me ...
We lead the Brewers by 2 in the 15th. The Brewers have to send a pitcher to the plate with 2 outs. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS GET THE PITCHER AND GAME OVER. Of course we WALK THE PITCHER and proceed to lose.
And then of course that stretch where we lost about 7 games in a row by a 1-0 score was somewhat of a killer as well.
It makes me wonder how Milwaukee feels. Over there on onlybrewers.net I'm sure they're beside themselves over how things might be looking if they had managed to win at all against the pirates on that five game series before the ASB
We lead the Brewers by 2 in the 15th. The Brewers have to send a pitcher to the plate with 2 outs. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS GET THE PITCHER AND GAME OVER. Of course we WALK THE PITCHER and proceed to lose.
And then of course that stretch where we lost about 7 games in a row by a 1-0 score was somewhat of a killer as well.
It makes me wonder how Milwaukee feels. Over there on onlybrewers.net I'm sure they're beside themselves over how things might be looking if they had managed to win at all against the pirates on that five game series before the ASB
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SteadyFreddy
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
The game where Hurdle pitched McRae against the Cardinals after they were down 4-1 and came back and tied it, and the following day where Hurdle refused to use Freese in a one run game so many times and said he had contusion on his arm and the Pirates lost that game as well to the Cards which kind of got them on the roll they have been on in which will probably lead to them winning the 2nd wildcard. These two losses early in August at home at such a key time after we they got Archer and won the first game of that Cardinals series I felt at the time was very important.
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SteadyFreddy
Bucs vs Royals - 9/18 . . .
Two more games recently even that stick out are the first game of the Cards series last week where they were up 4-0 and 6-4 and lost and the middle game of the Braves series where Archer pitches and they were up 3-1 and Kela I believe blew that game. Add two more wins there and the Pirates are 79-72 and probably 3 games back of a wildcard spot now with 12 games left to play which is plenty of time to make up such a deficit.