Until it doesn't happen, I won't believe they won't bring in anyone. They have added to the team every year. I know they have never made that big trade, but now might be the time to do that.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
2017 Outlook
4060736E6F010 wrote:
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
May I ask what you're basing this on? I can't locate a single defensive or pitching stat where the Pirates were at the bottom. Errors and fielding percentage were near the bottom, SP ERA was in the bottom third, team ERA was middle of the pack - lots of room for improvement certainly, but you seem to be almost argumentative about the Pirates being "at the bottom" and not just in need of improvement - maybe we are just looking at different things?
I'm also curious about why you feel so sure the defense isn't likely to improve. Marte and Harrison both missed time in 2016, Jaso was playing 1B for the first time in his career, Bell and Frazier were both rookies and both largely playing 'new' positions, they brought in two different catchers off the scrap-heap because of injuries to Cervelli and Stewart. Kang had a poor year defensively, do you think he's more likely to regress farther than to rebound or that their rookies are going to become worse fielders as they gain more experience? Their team fielding percentage was #12 of 15 in the NL, but had they made exactly one less error, they would be tied for #7 of 15. They were literally one error away from being an average defensive team.
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
May I ask what you're basing this on? I can't locate a single defensive or pitching stat where the Pirates were at the bottom. Errors and fielding percentage were near the bottom, SP ERA was in the bottom third, team ERA was middle of the pack - lots of room for improvement certainly, but you seem to be almost argumentative about the Pirates being "at the bottom" and not just in need of improvement - maybe we are just looking at different things?
I'm also curious about why you feel so sure the defense isn't likely to improve. Marte and Harrison both missed time in 2016, Jaso was playing 1B for the first time in his career, Bell and Frazier were both rookies and both largely playing 'new' positions, they brought in two different catchers off the scrap-heap because of injuries to Cervelli and Stewart. Kang had a poor year defensively, do you think he's more likely to regress farther than to rebound or that their rookies are going to become worse fielders as they gain more experience? Their team fielding percentage was #12 of 15 in the NL, but had they made exactly one less error, they would be tied for #7 of 15. They were literally one error away from being an average defensive team.
2017 Outlook
475B5640404A330 wrote:
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
May I ask what you're basing this on? I can't locate a single defensive or pitching stat where the Pirates were at the bottom. Errors and fielding percentage were near the bottom, SP ERA was in the bottom third, team ERA was middle of the pack - lots of room for improvement certainly, but you seem to be almost argumentative about the Pirates being "at the bottom" and not just in need of improvement - maybe we are just looking at different things?
I'm also curious about why you feel so sure the defense isn't likely to improve. Marte and Harrison both missed time in 2016, Jaso was playing 1B for the first time in his career, Bell and Frazier were both rookies and both largely playing 'new' positions, they brought in two different catchers off the scrap-heap because of injuries to Cervelli and Stewart. Kang had a poor year defensively, do you think he's more likely to regress farther than to rebound or that their rookies are going to become worse fielders as they gain more experience? Their team fielding percentage was #12 of 15 in the NL, but had they made exactly one less error, they would be tied for #7 of 15. They were literally one error away from being an average defensive team.
Perhaps I was slightly overly critical of the pitching staff. But it was bad.
8th in FIP
9th in ERA
12th in WHIP
14th in fWAR
Defensively....I don't see them improving. Harrison, Frazier and Bell are bad defensive players. McCutchen is bad as well and only getting worse. Fangraphs ranked them dead last in defense.
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
May I ask what you're basing this on? I can't locate a single defensive or pitching stat where the Pirates were at the bottom. Errors and fielding percentage were near the bottom, SP ERA was in the bottom third, team ERA was middle of the pack - lots of room for improvement certainly, but you seem to be almost argumentative about the Pirates being "at the bottom" and not just in need of improvement - maybe we are just looking at different things?
I'm also curious about why you feel so sure the defense isn't likely to improve. Marte and Harrison both missed time in 2016, Jaso was playing 1B for the first time in his career, Bell and Frazier were both rookies and both largely playing 'new' positions, they brought in two different catchers off the scrap-heap because of injuries to Cervelli and Stewart. Kang had a poor year defensively, do you think he's more likely to regress farther than to rebound or that their rookies are going to become worse fielders as they gain more experience? Their team fielding percentage was #12 of 15 in the NL, but had they made exactly one less error, they would be tied for #7 of 15. They were literally one error away from being an average defensive team.
Perhaps I was slightly overly critical of the pitching staff. But it was bad.
8th in FIP
9th in ERA
12th in WHIP
14th in fWAR
Defensively....I don't see them improving. Harrison, Frazier and Bell are bad defensive players. McCutchen is bad as well and only getting worse. Fangraphs ranked them dead last in defense.
2017 Outlook
4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote: Until it doesn't happen, I won't believe they won't bring in anyone. They have added to the team every year. I know they have never made that big trade, but now might be the time to do that.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
0424372A2B450 wrote: Until it doesn't happen, I won't believe they won't bring in anyone. They have added to the team every year. I know they have never made that big trade, but now might be the time to do that.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
Right, I am aware of that.
Martin, Cervelli, Burnett, Volquez, and Kang were positive moves. Why do we always forget about those moves? Such a negative world we live in.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
Right, I am aware of that.
Martin, Cervelli, Burnett, Volquez, and Kang were positive moves. Why do we always forget about those moves? Such a negative world we live in.
2017 Outlook
3338303C3938236660172E363F3838793438570 wrote: Until it doesn't happen, I won't believe they won't bring in anyone. They have added to the team every year. I know they have never made that big trade, but now might be the time to do that.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
Right, I am aware of that.
Martin, Cervelli, Burnett, Volquez, and Kang were positive moves. Why do we always forget about those moves? Such a negative world we live in.
I don't think people have forgotten.....just being realistic about this off season's options. A few things to consider. I believe the untapped market Huntington was taking advantage of is no longer untapped. Teams are copying his philosophy and making it much more competitive and more expensive. I also think there was some luck or lighting in a bottle with guys like Volquez and maybe Cervelli.
Arbitration is going to add to the payroll anyway. Talk is talk. I will wait until action / non-action until I judge.
Adding players and adding talented players are two different things. They added Nicasio, Vogelsong and Niese this past off season. It wasn't a positive.
Right, I am aware of that.
Martin, Cervelli, Burnett, Volquez, and Kang were positive moves. Why do we always forget about those moves? Such a negative world we live in.
I don't think people have forgotten.....just being realistic about this off season's options. A few things to consider. I believe the untapped market Huntington was taking advantage of is no longer untapped. Teams are copying his philosophy and making it much more competitive and more expensive. I also think there was some luck or lighting in a bottle with guys like Volquez and maybe Cervelli.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
Why is it always luck with this front office when they land a good player? Is it possible they know what they are doing?
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
2017 Outlook
313A323E3B3A216462152C343D3A3A7B363A550 wrote: Why is it always luck with this front office when they land a good player? Is it possible they know what they are doing?
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
I don't think it was luck but don't think you should depend on it every year either. No matter how much you like the methods it isn't always going to work out with these pitchers.
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
I don't think it was luck but don't think you should depend on it every year either. No matter how much you like the methods it isn't always going to work out with these pitchers.
2017 Outlook
6269616D6869723731467F676E6969286569060 wrote: Why is it always luck with this front office when they land a good player? Is it possible they know what they are doing?
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
Where did I say it was "always luck"? I cited two examples in Volquez...who regressed to his career norm and possibly Cervelli....who continued his career history with injuries. I give the Pirates full credit for Liriano, Burnett, Martin, Grilli and Happ.
Considering the salary dump of Liriano and the statements about the budget being tight....not sure why anyone would feel confident about them adjusting to the times.
I agree with you that their strategy is catching on. But that doesn't mean it is going away. It might mean higher salaries, but they will have to adjust to the times and I think they will.
Where did I say it was "always luck"? I cited two examples in Volquez...who regressed to his career norm and possibly Cervelli....who continued his career history with injuries. I give the Pirates full credit for Liriano, Burnett, Martin, Grilli and Happ.
Considering the salary dump of Liriano and the statements about the budget being tight....not sure why anyone would feel confident about them adjusting to the times.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
I was just asking in general. The people who still blame Nutting for the 20 years of losing use the term "luck/lucky" a lot when a player unexpectantly has a good year.