https://www.bucsdugout.com/2018/1/16/16 ... ole-trades
Well, I won’t belabor the obvious: Not many fans, whether Pirate fans or not, think these were good trades. I think the best argument for the trades is that the alternative — waiting until July -- was too much to ask of a fanbase in which many fans understand the team can’t contend with its current core. It’s a lot to expect fans to spend four more months in purgatory, waiting until, as Eli puts it, the team chooses a direction. And then they’d still have to go through the inevitable anger over trading the team’s best players
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
DemDog
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
I agree with WTM. The Bucs are in a holding pattern that is endless allowing other teams who will spend some money, do some real scouting and be willing to give the kids they do have a real try in MLB.
But doing some of the things that WTM suggests will force the team to increase payroll some due to buying out guys like Hudson, Arod, Freese. Is that something TBMTB will do? Will they be willing to say that their model of building a team not longer works?
I think it would be great to see some of these kids play and hopefully succeed but if they fail it is not because they had a chance or didn't try. If you get a chance guys go see a MiLB club in your area play a few games. No matter the level you will enjoy seeing kids busting butt to succeed.
If only the Bucs would encourage the same thing with their players. I for one would go to more Bucs games if I did not have to see so many older guys who are backups playing as starters rather than what they are, bench guys.
But doing some of the things that WTM suggests will force the team to increase payroll some due to buying out guys like Hudson, Arod, Freese. Is that something TBMTB will do? Will they be willing to say that their model of building a team not longer works?
I think it would be great to see some of these kids play and hopefully succeed but if they fail it is not because they had a chance or didn't try. If you get a chance guys go see a MiLB club in your area play a few games. No matter the level you will enjoy seeing kids busting butt to succeed.
If only the Bucs would encourage the same thing with their players. I for one would go to more Bucs games if I did not have to see so many older guys who are backups playing as starters rather than what they are, bench guys.
-
Bobster21
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
This is the point I find most relevant. I made similar comments earlier:
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds.
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds.
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
123F32232435226261500 wrote: This is the point I find most relevant. I made similar comments earlier:
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. [highlight]Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds. [/highlight]
You've identified the "plan" imo, The fans are Charlie Brown and the team management is Lucy pulling the football away.
The Cole and Cutch deals did nothing to make the team better in 2018 or 2019 but management wants us to believe otherwise.
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. [highlight]Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds. [/highlight]
You've identified the "plan" imo, The fans are Charlie Brown and the team management is Lucy pulling the football away.
The Cole and Cutch deals did nothing to make the team better in 2018 or 2019 but management wants us to believe otherwise.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
5F79786F79691A0 wrote: This is the point I find most relevant. I made similar comments earlier:
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. [highlight]Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds. [/highlight]
You've identified the "plan" imo, The fans are Charlie Brown and the team management is Lucy pulling the football away.
The Cole and Cutch deals did nothing to make the team better in 2018 or 2019 but management wants us to believe otherwise.
They don’t make the team better in 2020 or 21 either.
The Pirates managed two key assets (Cutch and Cole) into nothing. Unimaginable three years ago. But the whole thing fell apart because there was no plan to manage this thing. The ONLY thing that has been managed is the bottom-line.
How do they intend to EVER build a contender much less a champion? I don’t see a way it can be done.
Yet Neal tells us they plan to compete this season....
Empty words. Lies....
Even more fundamentally, the Pirates should be asking themselves how they got into this position. I don’t doubt that these were the best deals they could get, but that’s a function of having to trade away good, reasonably priced players because they’ve left themselves with no other path forward. These trades weren’t a product of bad deal-making. They were a product of intentionally downgrading a 98-win team after the 2015 season, making no effort to improve after the 2016 season, largely punting the Latin American amateur market, getting mediocre results in the draft, frittering away excruciatingly tight financial resources on relievers and reserves, and generally lacking strategies for acquiring the sort of high-ceiling players upon whom championship teams are built. The Pirates need to address these questions before trading for a bunch of relievers is going to do them any good.
They started with a sound plan, saw it working and then turned it into such a train wreck that 3 years after winning 98 games they have to tear it up and start over. And these are the same people with the same talent evaluators and the same financial strategies who we are supposed to put our faith in that someday, if we're patient enough, they'll get it right. [highlight]Unless they change their methods all we've got to look forward to are repeated cycles of buildups, never getting close enough, and then rebuilds. [/highlight]
You've identified the "plan" imo, The fans are Charlie Brown and the team management is Lucy pulling the football away.
The Cole and Cutch deals did nothing to make the team better in 2018 or 2019 but management wants us to believe otherwise.
They don’t make the team better in 2020 or 21 either.
The Pirates managed two key assets (Cutch and Cole) into nothing. Unimaginable three years ago. But the whole thing fell apart because there was no plan to manage this thing. The ONLY thing that has been managed is the bottom-line.
How do they intend to EVER build a contender much less a champion? I don’t see a way it can be done.
Yet Neal tells us they plan to compete this season....
Empty words. Lies....
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
I caught part of a show on MLB yesterday while they were talking about the Pirates trade. The take there was that the Pirates had gotten pretty good talent back. They were considering it an okay trade from a talent standpoint. The emotional standpoint, of course, is a different issue.
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
All my opinion: the Cutch trade was ok talent wise. It didn't bring back much though, and the comp pick for just letting him walk is worth more than Crick, to me. The OF Reynolds is what made it better than taking the comp, but definitely NOT worth the aggravation. Should have just kept him since NH walked away from real talent last year before Eaton was traded.
If NH could draft, we wouldn't have such a lousy system that very marginal talent can't be passed up on when trading away the face of the franchise. Our minors stink. With 1-2 exceptions, the guys seem little different to me than the Paul Maholms and Gorzelannys of old DL years
Cole, NH just got cleaned out. Musgrove I like better than Moran. Way way too high on Moran, who's stat sheet looks likely to be a platoon 3bman with a bad glove and limited power.
There's a chance he's a solid regular. I guess that's what's important...there's always a chance.
If NH could draft, we wouldn't have such a lousy system that very marginal talent can't be passed up on when trading away the face of the franchise. Our minors stink. With 1-2 exceptions, the guys seem little different to me than the Paul Maholms and Gorzelannys of old DL years
Cole, NH just got cleaned out. Musgrove I like better than Moran. Way way too high on Moran, who's stat sheet looks likely to be a platoon 3bman with a bad glove and limited power.
There's a chance he's a solid regular. I guess that's what's important...there's always a chance.
Bucs Dugout Article by WTM
You can make a case that the Royals are the model. They won in ‘15 without a regular having an OPS > 850. There were no stars in the lineup, but they had several somewhat above average regulars with 6 players having an OPS > 800. Most of those guys hit 15-20 HRs along with Perez at C whose OPS was just 706.
They also didn’t have any star SPs until they added Cueto late. But there were no real bums either.
They did have that incredible bullpen. Looking at their stats shows how good it was top (W. Davis) to bottom.
They also helped put themselves over the top by adding Zobrist and Cueto. Aside from ‘13, the Bucs didn’t get the kind of big help that sends that positive message and energy. And the Royals have/had the advantage of playing in a more winnable division, one that lacks dominant, big market teams (ChiSox could be but they resemble the pre-Theo Cubs, not the current Cubs).
So, maybe that’s what they’re hoping to do? The downside of the Royals approach (not trading off the core) is the full tear down they are in now as that accumulation of better than average talent is all leaving with very little return. The benefit was that they kept their window open a little longer.
They also didn’t have any star SPs until they added Cueto late. But there were no real bums either.
They did have that incredible bullpen. Looking at their stats shows how good it was top (W. Davis) to bottom.
They also helped put themselves over the top by adding Zobrist and Cueto. Aside from ‘13, the Bucs didn’t get the kind of big help that sends that positive message and energy. And the Royals have/had the advantage of playing in a more winnable division, one that lacks dominant, big market teams (ChiSox could be but they resemble the pre-Theo Cubs, not the current Cubs).
So, maybe that’s what they’re hoping to do? The downside of the Royals approach (not trading off the core) is the full tear down they are in now as that accumulation of better than average talent is all leaving with very little return. The benefit was that they kept their window open a little longer.