With all the talk (and justifiably so) of the Chris Archer trade being the dumbest trade in the history of professional sports, it's easy to forget another landmark, boneheaded, idiotic trade in Pirates history.
It was announced this week that Aramis Ramirez is on the Hall of Fame ballot. Now I don't believe for a minute that he is a Hall of Famer, but I do know he was a power-hitting third baseman who hit nearly 400 HOME RUNS in his career.
And what did our Pirates do with him. They GAVE HIM AWAY for (if I remember correctly) a box doughnuts and a $25 gift card to Target.
Even worse, they GAVE him to the Cubs.
I remember writing on this very board at the time ... we just GAVE AWAY a guy who will probably hit 400 home runs. Well he didn't make it to 400, but he did hit about 350 more HRs than the combined total of all Pirates' third basemen during that time.
Just shoot me.
Aramis
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Aramis
Not only that, but they also gave the cubs Kenny Lofton in that deal. Lofton had signed with them as a FA at age 36 hoping to jumpstart his career which had faded the last few years. He did just that. Played a good CF and in half a season hit .277 with 9 HRs and 18 SBs.
This is what Nellie Briles said at a fantasy camp I attended the next year. He said the Pirates were in noncompliance with MLB rules regarding revenue vs payroll (to ensure teams never defaulted on paying their players). The Pirates had to immediately shed payroll. They worked out a trade to send Kris Benson to Atlanta. He was making 4.3 million. The season was half over so they would have saved a little over 2 million and maybe less depending on if they had to pay a MLB salary for the return. But in his last start prior to when the trade would be announced he hurt his arm and the deal was nixed.
Littlefield then decided to essentially give Ramirez (3 million) and Lofton (1.025 million) to the Cubs based on nothing more than their salaries. Of course half of all salaries involved were already paid by the time of the trade in July. Hernandez would be a FA after the season and was getting 1million. Hill and Bruback were not getting MLB salaries. So the Pirates saved a little over 1.5 million.
I understand being forced to shed salary. But I can't believe Littlefield couldn't get a better return for those 2 players. I realize he couldn't receive anyone with a salary that would offset the savings. But Hill and Bruback (who they quickly lost on waivers trying to slip him off the 40man and into AAA) were nowhere near the quality of prospects the Bucs should have received for the talent they gave up. What a steal for the Cubs.
This is what Nellie Briles said at a fantasy camp I attended the next year. He said the Pirates were in noncompliance with MLB rules regarding revenue vs payroll (to ensure teams never defaulted on paying their players). The Pirates had to immediately shed payroll. They worked out a trade to send Kris Benson to Atlanta. He was making 4.3 million. The season was half over so they would have saved a little over 2 million and maybe less depending on if they had to pay a MLB salary for the return. But in his last start prior to when the trade would be announced he hurt his arm and the deal was nixed.
Littlefield then decided to essentially give Ramirez (3 million) and Lofton (1.025 million) to the Cubs based on nothing more than their salaries. Of course half of all salaries involved were already paid by the time of the trade in July. Hernandez would be a FA after the season and was getting 1million. Hill and Bruback were not getting MLB salaries. So the Pirates saved a little over 1.5 million.
I understand being forced to shed salary. But I can't believe Littlefield couldn't get a better return for those 2 players. I realize he couldn't receive anyone with a salary that would offset the savings. But Hill and Bruback (who they quickly lost on waivers trying to slip him off the 40man and into AAA) were nowhere near the quality of prospects the Bucs should have received for the talent they gave up. What a steal for the Cubs.
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ArnoldRothstein
Aramis
I think a big factor in the trade was that they brought him up too early, then kept sending him down when he didn't produce immediately. Aramis had only really hit for half a season after DL was hired, and things like hitting .320 with power in Triple A just didn't have any impact on the decision at all.
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3481
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Aramis
That trade was awful. Also they threw in Kenny Lofton who was having a decent year with the Pirates. That trade was a salary dump, but I am sure Littlefield could have received a better return if he had waited until the trade deadline date, rather than I think July 23, or 24th when the trade occurred.
Aramis
6C5F434241497F4259455E594844432D0 wrote: I think a big factor in the trade was that they brought him up too early, then kept sending him down when he didn't produce immediately. Aramis had only really hit for half a season after DL was hired, and things like hitting .320 with power in Triple A just didn't have any impact on the decision at all.
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
the Pirates also made Aramis play when injured with a bad ankle in 2002. It was painful to just watch him play. His trade was indefensible because of the return. It doesn't matter about the Benson deal falling through. The Bucs just did atrocious roster and salary management that year. They kept Reggie Sanders all season as if no other team could have used his bat.
In regard to the finances, I can't believe major league baseball came out of the blue with a warning to the Pirates that you have 2 or 3 days to get into compliance. As far as I know that has not happened to any other team. The Bucs had to be aware and DL should have done better. He really should have been fired after 2003.
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
the Pirates also made Aramis play when injured with a bad ankle in 2002. It was painful to just watch him play. His trade was indefensible because of the return. It doesn't matter about the Benson deal falling through. The Bucs just did atrocious roster and salary management that year. They kept Reggie Sanders all season as if no other team could have used his bat.
In regard to the finances, I can't believe major league baseball came out of the blue with a warning to the Pirates that you have 2 or 3 days to get into compliance. As far as I know that has not happened to any other team. The Bucs had to be aware and DL should have done better. He really should have been fired after 2003.
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Bobster21
Aramis
4D6B6A7D6B7B080 wrote: I think a big factor in the trade was that they brought him up too early, then kept sending him down when he didn't produce immediately. Aramis had only really hit for half a season after DL was hired, and things like hitting .320 with power in Triple A just didn't have any impact on the decision at all.
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
the Pirates also made Aramis play when injured with a bad ankle in 2002. It was painful to just watch him play. His trade was indefensible because of the return. It doesn't matter about the Benson deal falling through. The Bucs just did atrocious roster and salary management that year. They kept Reggie Sanders all season as if no other team could have used his bat.
In regard to the finances, I can't believe major league baseball came out of the blue with a warning to the Pirates that you have 2 or 3 days to get into compliance. As far as I know that has not happened to any other team. The Bucs had to be aware and DL should have done better. He really should have been fired after 2003.
Littlefield was atrocious and should have been fired long before he actually was. He should have made a better deal than that regardless of the time factor. I can't believe he couldn't call around for a couple hours and get better offers for the talent he was offering. Seems like the Cubs offered garbage and he said, "Deal!"
Cubs were 50-50 when the trade was made. From that point on they went 38-24 and won the division. They lost the NLCS 4-3 so came within a hair of going to the WS thanks to the trade. Ramirez and Lofton both did well for them. They knew they were receiving 2 impact players. They also knew that if the Pirates dealt those 2 to another team it would be tougher for the Cubs to make up ground.
I can imagine if the Cub had not got the trade done, their GM would have been raked over the coals for making such a pathetic offer. But instead, Littlefield jumped at it!
I find the Pirate third base situation in this era - Joe Randa, Freddy Garcia, Doug Strange, Ed Sprague, Wil Cordero - to be fascinating.
the Pirates also made Aramis play when injured with a bad ankle in 2002. It was painful to just watch him play. His trade was indefensible because of the return. It doesn't matter about the Benson deal falling through. The Bucs just did atrocious roster and salary management that year. They kept Reggie Sanders all season as if no other team could have used his bat.
In regard to the finances, I can't believe major league baseball came out of the blue with a warning to the Pirates that you have 2 or 3 days to get into compliance. As far as I know that has not happened to any other team. The Bucs had to be aware and DL should have done better. He really should have been fired after 2003.
Littlefield was atrocious and should have been fired long before he actually was. He should have made a better deal than that regardless of the time factor. I can't believe he couldn't call around for a couple hours and get better offers for the talent he was offering. Seems like the Cubs offered garbage and he said, "Deal!"
Cubs were 50-50 when the trade was made. From that point on they went 38-24 and won the division. They lost the NLCS 4-3 so came within a hair of going to the WS thanks to the trade. Ramirez and Lofton both did well for them. They knew they were receiving 2 impact players. They also knew that if the Pirates dealt those 2 to another team it would be tougher for the Cubs to make up ground.
I can imagine if the Cub had not got the trade done, their GM would have been raked over the coals for making such a pathetic offer. But instead, Littlefield jumped at it!
Aramis
Two things that really amaze me about the trade:
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Aramis
3B37366D646D65686F706A5D0 wrote: That trade was awful. Also they threw in Kenny Lofton who was having a decent year with the Pirates. That trade was a salary dump, but I am sure Littlefield could have received a better return if he had waited until the trade deadline date, rather than I think July 23, or 24th when the trade occurred.
Lofton was a straight salary dump. I guess Ramiez was as well, but I am not sure how you can trade a young player like that and the key return is a player that is the same age and not as good. As surgnbuck said, it was even worse when they trade him directly to a division rival. Might not have been as bad if he went to the Rangers or Twins.
Lofton was a straight salary dump. I guess Ramiez was as well, but I am not sure how you can trade a young player like that and the key return is a player that is the same age and not as good. As surgnbuck said, it was even worse when they trade him directly to a division rival. Might not have been as bad if he went to the Rangers or Twins.
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm
Aramis
466067727B7760767E150 wrote: Two things that really amaze me about the trade:
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
They took on debt from previous owners, and McClatchy was highly leveraged. His mismanagement is why the team was cash poor and why Bob Nutting is now the owner.
Does not excuse the trade.
I am not sure what MLB could do, it was a bad trade, but they cannot step in because of GM incompetence.
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
They took on debt from previous owners, and McClatchy was highly leveraged. His mismanagement is why the team was cash poor and why Bob Nutting is now the owner.
Does not excuse the trade.
I am not sure what MLB could do, it was a bad trade, but they cannot step in because of GM incompetence.
Aramis
092E27272E3D3E2E093E284B0 wrote: Two things that really amaze me about the trade:
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
They took on debt from previous owners, and McClatchy was highly leveraged. His mismanagement is why the team was cash poor and why Bob Nutting is now the owner.
Does not excuse the trade.
I am not sure what MLB could do, it was a bad trade, but they cannot step in because of GM incompetence.
No matter how someone views it, something like this was what Bowie Kuhn tried stopping back in his day, especially with Charles Finley in Oakland. The Marlins were the updated version. At least those teams won something first.
How the Pirates were financially no better than the guy mowing your lawn, living paycheck to paycheck, even though they had a brand new house to live in and didn't pay much in the way of rent. How were they that bad off financially after PNC Park opened to insanely huge crowds for an insanely bad team?
The other is how could MLB allow such a one sided trade when the Pirates were essentially being forced to make a trade? Why wasn't something mandated during the offseason? IIRC, the Pirates were absolutely eviscerated for raising ticket prices that season, after a record attendance at PNC Park? They obviously had financial issues that were almost beyond repair. This led to them being granted the All-Star game so soon.
How they weren't contracted or moved prior to PNC is beyond me. Enter Bob Nutting. Now the Pirates appear to be rock solid financially. We still have the 100 loss teams, but at least now when they make a bad trade to dump salary, the return is simply due to incompetence, not out of sheer financial desperation.
They took on debt from previous owners, and McClatchy was highly leveraged. His mismanagement is why the team was cash poor and why Bob Nutting is now the owner.
Does not excuse the trade.
I am not sure what MLB could do, it was a bad trade, but they cannot step in because of GM incompetence.
No matter how someone views it, something like this was what Bowie Kuhn tried stopping back in his day, especially with Charles Finley in Oakland. The Marlins were the updated version. At least those teams won something first.