A Possible Comparison Of Teams

[fjk090852-7]

As an older Pirates fan I recently thought about how Joe Brown and Howie Hawk built a winning organization in comparison with Ben Cherington and Steve Sanders. Back in the late 1960 s and mid 70s we saw players from the minors such as Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Bob Robertson, Gene Clines, Richie Zisk, Bob Moose, and Dave Parker just to name a few join the Pirates team. Currently there are several high end prospects in the minors. Players like Martin, Priester, Gonzales, Peguero, Mitchell,Bae and Yajure just to name a few. We could soon see another exciting period from the Pirates just like they had in the late 60s and 70s.

[Bobster21]

767A7B2029202825223D27100 wrote: As an older Pirates fan I recently thought about how Joe Brown and Howie Hawk built a winning organization in comparison with Ben Cherington and Steve Sanders. Back in the late 1960 s and mid 70s we saw players from the minors such as Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Bob Robertson, Gene Clines, Richie Zisk, Bob Moose, and Dave Parker just to name a few join the Pirates team. Currently there are several high end prospects in the minors. Players like Martin, Priester, Gonzales, Peguero, Mitchell,Bae and Yajure just to name a few. We could soon see another exciting period from the Pirates just like they had in the late 60s and 70s.
I wish that were true but the 1960s and earlier 1970s teams weren't dealing with free agency. And free agency was in its infancy for the late 1970s teams. Small market teams were not yet priced out from quality players. So those prospects who were developed could be kept as long as the team wanted and supplemented with other players as needed. Imagine if those teams had to deal with Maz, Stargell, Clemente, Blass, Tekulve, etc having to be traded after 4 or 5 years before they left to take insane contracts from the Yankees or Dodgers. It's still important to develop a strong farm system but now those prospects all come with a short shelf life because of free agency.

[WildwoodDave2]

062B26373021367675440 wrote: As an older Pirates fan I recently thought about how Joe Brown and Howie Hawk built a winning organization in comparison with Ben Cherington and Steve Sanders. Back in the late 1960 s and mid 70s we saw players from the minors such as Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Bob Robertson, Gene Clines, Richie Zisk, Bob Moose, and Dave Parker just to name a few join the Pirates team. Currently there are several high end prospects in the minors. Players like Martin, Priester, Gonzales, Peguero, Mitchell,Bae and Yajure just to name a few. We could soon see another exciting period from the Pirates just like they had in the late 60s and 70s.
I wish that were true but the 1960s and earlier 1970s teams weren't dealing with free agency. And free agency was in its infancy for the late 1970s teams. Small market teams were not yet priced out from quality players. So those prospects who were developed could be kept as long as the team wanted and supplemented with other players as needed. Imagine if those teams had to deal with Maz, Stargell, Clemente, Blass, Tekulve, etc having to be traded after 4 or 5 years before they left to take insane contracts from the Yankees or Dodgers. It's still important to develop a strong farm system but now those prospects all come with a short shelf life because of free agency. 
You answered that question extremely well, Can't disagree with anything you said.

[GreenWeenie]

343839626B626A67607F65520 wrote: As an older Pirates fan I recently thought about how Joe Brown and Howie Hawk built a winning organization in comparison with Ben Cherington and Steve Sanders. Back in the late 1960 s and mid 70s we saw players from the minors such as Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Bob Robertson, Gene Clines, Richie Zisk, Bob Moose, and Dave Parker just to name a few join the Pirates team. Currently there are several high end prospects in the minors. Players like Martin, Priester, Gonzales, Peguero, Mitchell,Bae and Yajure just to name a few. We could soon see another exciting period from the Pirates just like they had in the late 60s and 70s.


Then? Galbraith.



Today? Not Galbraith.



If the current man, operating under today's climate, owned that team, Roberto Clemente, Bill Mazeroski, Willie Stargell, and others absolutely would have been dumped.



I believe that the Pirates had baseball's first millionaire player, Dave Parker. Forget about us having the highest-paid player.

[fjk090852-7]

112F2A22312929220227302374460 wrote: As an older Pirates fan I recently thought about how Joe Brown and Howie Hawk built a winning organization in comparison with Ben Cherington and Steve Sanders. Back in the late 1960 s and mid 70s we saw players from the minors such as Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Bob Robertson, Gene Clines, Richie Zisk, Bob Moose, and Dave Parker just to name a few join the Pirates team. Currently there are several high end prospects in the minors. Players like Martin, Priester, Gonzales, Peguero, Mitchell,Bae and Yajure just to name a few. We could soon see another exciting period from the Pirates just like they had in the late 60s and 70s.
I wish that were true but the 1960s and earlier 1970s teams weren't dealing with free agency. And free agency was in its infancy for the late 1970s teams. Small market teams were not yet priced out from quality players. So those prospects who were developed could be kept as long as the team wanted and supplemented with other players as needed. Imagine if those teams had to deal with Maz, Stargell, Clemente, Blass, Tekulve, etc having to be traded after 4 or 5 years before they left to take insane contracts from the Yankees or Dodgers. It's still important to develop a strong farm system but now those prospects all come with a short shelf life because of free agency. 
You answered that question extremely well, Can't disagree with anything you said.
Totally agree about the free agency situation, but I think our Farm System is about to produce players similar as what happened years ago. I think in 1968 Sangy arrived, in 1969 Hebner, Robertson, Oliver came on board. Stennett came up in August 1971, and they could not get him out. I think beginning next year about this time we are going to begin to see prospects coming up who will be part of the foundation for a winning team. Probably after 5 or 6 years we will lose them to free agency , but hopefully the Pirates can replenish the system.

[ArnoldRothstein]

Stennett came up in August 1971, and they could not get him out.


I'd love to know if there's another player who hit .353 and got left off the playoff roster.

[Bobster21]

0E3D2120232B1D203B273C3B2A26214F0 wrote: Stennett came up in August 1971, and they could not get him out.


I'd love to know if there's another player who hit .353 and got left off the playoff roster.
That was a shame. I think the Pirates explained it as having to choose between Stennett and Pagan since Pagan had missed about 6 weeks in the 2nd half with an injury but came back in September. He was a big part of the WS team making 4 starts at 3B.



But the real issue seems to have been Maz. Maz was 34, near the end of his career and played a small role on the 1971 team, backing up Cash at 2B until Stennett took over that role and Maz became mostly a PHer starting only 4 games the last 6 weeks of the season. In the post season he made 1 PH appearance in the NLCS and 1 more in the WS. I think it came down to a PR and emotional issue for Murtaugh. How do you keep Bill Mazeroski off the WS roster? But Maz was basically a spectator while Dave Cash started all 7 games in the WS and hit .133. Obviously Murtaugh was not comfortable giving Maz a start at 2B but I think Stennett would played a few games at 2B when Cash was struggling.

[ArnoldRothstein]

They jumped Stennett over Double A and moved him from outfield to second base, and he still hit .344 in half a season at Charleston.

[rucker59@gmail.com]

FA is huge, but can be worked around. The Rays and other teams prove it.



I think Ben is heading the right direction. Nutting has to do his part. If he does, then I think the pirates can chase a WS.

[GreenWeenie]

We've cut that grass before.....that leopard's not changing any spots.