OnlyBucs

4B666B7A7D6C7B3B38090 wrote: Cherington started with nothing isn't exactly the case.  I'm not sure that any team does, unless it's an expansion club.



What he started with was an incomplete roster, which has been the club's issue on and off for a long time.  That's not the same as nothing.
When BC was hired after the 93-loss 2019 season, he wasn't expected to immediately turn over the MLB roster into a post season contender for an owner who refused to pay for the acquisition of productive veterans who might reasonably be expected to turn over the MLB roster into a post season contender.



Whether he succeeds or not, BC's mission was very clear: build up the team internally via drafting and trading for prospects. And he literally started with nothing! Covid eliminated all minor league play when BC started in 2020. There was no minor league play, no minor league development. Even the draft was reduced to 5 rounds. Even the MLB season was a mere 60 games with the distractions of health concerns, never knowing from one day to the next if the games would be played, in empty ballparks with crowd noise piped in. Essentially the entire 2020 season was a wash and a complete 1-year hiatus for the minors. And when they finally resumed a normal season in 2021, the talent BC was inheriting at Indy and Altoona was very thin.



So whether we like BC or not or think he's doing a good job or not, the fact is that he took over a 93-loss team trying to rebuild via the minor leagues in a year when there were no minor leagues. So "starting with nothing" sounds pretty accurate. 
Exactly Bobster! Some people have to look at the whole picture

577A77666170672724150 wrote: Cherington started with nothing isn't exactly the case.  I'm not sure that any team does, unless it's an expansion club.



What he started with was an incomplete roster, which has been the club's issue on and off for a long time.  That's not the same as nothing.
When BC was hired after the 93-loss 2019 season, he wasn't expected to immediately turn over the MLB roster into a post season contender for an owner who refused to pay for the acquisition of productive veterans who might reasonably be expected to turn over the MLB roster into a post season contender.



Whether he succeeds or not, BC's mission was very clear: build up the team internally via drafting and trading for prospects. And he literally started with nothing! Covid eliminated all minor league play when BC started in 2020. There was no minor league play, no minor league development. Even the draft was reduced to 5 rounds. Even the MLB season was a mere 60 games with the distractions of health concerns, never knowing from one day to the next if the games would be played, in empty ballparks with crowd noise piped in. Essentially the entire 2020 season was a wash and a complete 1-year hiatus for the minors. And when they finally resumed a normal season in 2021, the talent BC was inheriting at Indy and Altoona was very thin.



So whether we like BC or not or think he's doing a good job or not, the fact is that he took over a 93-loss team trying to rebuild via the minor leagues in a year when there were no minor leagues. So "starting with nothing" sounds pretty accurate. 


I don't know anyone who had that expectation.

Starling Marte, Jameson Taillon, Josh Bell, Jacob Stallings, Joe Musgrove, etc. were not nothing.



Now, the rest can be debated, but to think that the man started with nothing is disingenuous.

Oh, yeah. He started with Bryan Reynolds, too.

7B4E5959526B59595255593C0 wrote: Starling Marte, Jameson Taillon, Josh Bell, Jacob Stallings, Joe Musgrove, etc. were not nothing.



Now, the rest can be debated, but to think that the man started with nothing is disingenuous.


GW, it seems like in any discussion of the rebuilding effort, you revert back to the MLB roster. If the MLB roster was competitive, a rebuild wouldn't be needed. Those players were part of the 93-loss team of 2019. There was no one in the minors expected to be a significant part of the MLB team before those guys could leave as FAs. And Nutting was certainly not going to ok a payroll hike to round out the roster before then.



For Marte they got Liover Peguero, their likely SS of the future, and a pitcher. For Taillon they got Contreras, Smith-Njigba and Yajure. For Bell they got Crowe and another pitcher. For Stallings they got Thompson and 2 others. For Musgrove they got Bednar, Endy Hernandez and 3 others. BC was hired with a mandate to rebuild but there was little in the minors with which to rebuild. It has to be a combination of drafting and acquiring prospects from other organizations. And teams these days will not give up their best prospects. Especially in a trade for someone who can walk as a FA in a year or 2. Once a top prospect hits AA or AAA, he's almost untouchable (unless you are NH trading for Archer). So trading for prospects now is a very tricky business trying to identify prospects at lower levels with a good chance to become good major leaguers. They don't all work out but that's the system teams operate under. If the owner won't pay to keep his players and won't pay to acquire established players and has very little alternatives in the minors, what are the other options?

I maintain that to say that Cherington came to the Pirates with nothing to work with is not the case.



Because, it was not the case.



If someone wants to go beyond that, go ahead.

"BC started with nothing and is in only his third year."



I question the first half of that. I don't think that was the case at all.



If that's correct, then we disagree on what "something" is.



I'm not being critical of Ben on this. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a clean slate by any imagination. Not in my opinion, anyway.

1C293E3E350C3E3E35323E5B0 wrote: "BC started with nothing and is in only his third year."



I question the first half of that.  I don't think that was the case at all.



If that's correct, then we disagree on what "something" is.



I'm not being critical of Ben on this.  All I'm saying is that it wasn't a clean slate by any imagination.  Not in my opinion, anyway.


it wasn't a start with nothing as he was able to deal Marte, Musgrove, Bell, Taillon, Holmes, Rich Rod and Stallings from 2019 team.   He did choose to go for higher ceiling return rather than MLB replacements.



Whether he was successful or not largely rides on the players he got back from those deals and the draft. 



We should know more next year how successful these deals were.  I guess the players that have had much of an impact at ML level so far are Crowe, Bednar, Suwinkski, Mercano, Contreras, Thompson and Wilson.

634E43525544531310210 wrote: Starling Marte, Jameson Taillon, Josh Bell, Jacob Stallings, Joe Musgrove, etc. were not nothing.



Now, the rest can be debated, but to think that the man started with nothing is disingenuous.


GW, it seems like in any discussion of the rebuilding effort, you revert back to the MLB roster. If the MLB roster was competitive, a rebuild wouldn't be needed. Those players were part of the 93-loss team of 2019. There was no one in the minors expected to be a significant part of the MLB team before those guys could leave as FAs. And Nutting was certainly not going to ok a payroll hike to round out the roster before then.



For Marte they got Liover Peguero, their likely SS of the future, and a pitcher. For Taillon they got Contreras, Smith-Njigba and Yajure. For Bell they got Crowe and another pitcher. For Stallings they got Thompson and 2 others. For Musgrove they got Bednar, Endy Hernandez and 3 others. BC was hired with a mandate to rebuild but there was little in the minors with which to rebuild. It has to be a combination of drafting and acquiring prospects from other organizations. And teams these days will not give up their best prospects. Especially in a trade for someone who can walk as a FA in a year or 2. Once a top prospect hits AA or AAA, he's almost untouchable (unless you are NH trading for Archer). So trading for prospects now is a very tricky business trying to identify prospects at lower levels with a good chance to become good major leaguers. They don't all work out but that's the system teams operate under. If the owner won't pay to keep his players and won't pay to acquire established players and has very little alternatives in the minors, what are the other options?
Under the present circumstances, I doubt that anyone else

could do better other than firing Shelton

247264707F65757E736456717B777F7A3875160 wrote: It turned into a disaster a few seasons ago. 



Face it, we had some good seasons, but we had 20 disastrous years before that.  So, it's a lot less common when things are good.



They have folks sold on what they're doing.



I don't know what next year calls for.  I always look for improvement and hope that the folks in charge make the legitimate steps for it.
If they do, I think it's a pretty small group. I think in general, fans are very frustrated and want the team to become good but are skeptical. Most of us are lifelong fans of the team and have to deal with the reality of how things are. Nutting is not going to open the checkbook and bring in a bunch of productive veterans. Anyone who is sold on the idea of that ever happening is dreaming. The organization was going downhill under NH after 2015 and he was replaced. BC started with little in the minors during a season in which the minors didn't even play so the reality is that even a successful plan will take a few years. So all we can do is hope BC's plan works. That's very different from "being sold" on the idea that it is definitely going to work. 



At this point I'm becoming more and more skeptical. Obviously I want the rebuild to succeed because that's the course they are embarked on. But none of the players who moved up to the MLB roster this season have impressed. Most are lost at the plate. Castro seems to be a headcase. There is no consistency by the starting pitchers. The totality of the manager's decisions provides compelling evidence that he is grossly incompetent to run an MLB team. His 3B coach appears unfit for his job. It's hard to believe they even have a hitting coach. Few pitchers have progressed as hoped. And players in the field appear unsure of what they should be doing. And there is very little at AAA this year. And now we've been assured that Shelton will return next year. As if things weren't already bad enough.



But I think Pirate fans these days pay a lot of attention to the minor league players. We don't accept at face value that the team will be rebuilt into a strong team in a few years. If that's the spin the team is selling, then we want to see the evidence. We look at prospect rankings, their minor league performance and their injuries. We have every right to be critical and skeptical until things change at the MLB level, if they ever do. So I don't think they have fans sold on what they are doing. Rather, they have fans who understand what they are doing and are watching very carefully for signs of success or failure. So far, it's not looking good.
I am convinced after watching incompetence ad nauseum the Pittsburg area is content with losing baseball.  The era of excellence has been replaced by complacency.  If you don't understand how bad that is, look it up the dictionary.    Why else would a community put up with the sorry management of this baseball team.




Can you advise us on the ways the community can address this issue?  Can you provide a list of the ways all of us, working together, can change Bob Nutting into an owner who places winning as the chief priority?


The first thing you should do is not show up to games.  Businesses would start to recognize loss of business.  The chamber of commerce might  recognize how much the community could prosper if the Pirates were competitive.   The answer is always the same, follow the money.  The Community needs to let Old Bob know he's not welcome in Pittsburg.  The Sports media could also put pressure on old Bob.  Just do something except puff pieces about what a great job Shelton and Cherington are doing and we'll get them next year.  Quit accepting the clown show we now have to watch.


Coordinating an effort to get the million-plus baseball fans in this region to stop going to games is an impossible task.  There will always be more than a few thousand fans who'll buy season tickets or attend games.  The planned walkout a few years back indicated that it's not a popular move.



The Chamber of Commerce doesn't hold much sway in these matters.  They can't force an owner of a firm like the Pirates to simply do what they want him to do.  It's his business, and his profits to be made or lost.



I don't recall reading puff pieces about Cherington.  The plan he's undertaking is one that people in the media recognize as one that takes time.  BC started with nothing and is only in his third year.   Until his draft picks begin arriving and demonstrating their abilities, there's little sense in expecting a playoff contending team, especially with the constraints placed upon him payroll-wise.  Pretty much every other rebuild done in every other organization has gone the same way.  Why would it be different here?  Of course he's made mistakes, as all GMs do.  Those have been reported.



I believe the best recourse the community has is government pressure on Nutting.  Against the wishes of many in this area, PNC Park was built because the Pirates claimed it was needed, especially the luxury box revenues, in order to compete.  With the exception of a three year span, we haven't seen it.  The Pirates haven't upheld their end of the deal.  But, in the end, it's still his privately-owned business.  I'm not sure what the local and state governments can legally do to force him to run a competitive baseball franchise.  I don't even think embarrassing him could make him change his ways.


This team is worse than when Cherington took it over, it's obvious. A boycott of this creep (Nutting) is definitely in order. If the community can't get that done then it goes back to what I said previously, the community is accepting losing baseball. I'm seeing this malaise all over the country. Roberto Clemente, Willie Stargell would be rolling over and over in their graves if they saw what was going on with the Pirates. Such a shame. I for one can't watch it anymore.