7E6347454B2E0 wrote: I wonder which has the greater opportunity for significant success with $15M:
2 pitchers at $7.5M each
1 pitcher at $15M?
One of the issues I wonder about is how $$ is allocated by the Pirates. Trying to catch lightning in the bottle, the Pirates will spread Thin financial resources over several players. Part of the problem is their internal determination of individual contracts in relation to total payroll.
Maybe it's time to simply look for the best pitcher or player they can afford within the payroll. Forget 2 for 1 "opportunities". How about 1 Nova rather then a Niese/Vogie?
Catching lightening in a bottle is really hard even if Ray does magic.
Reading the tea leaves it appears to me the Bucs have a self imposed salary cap of 90-95 million. If accurate....the margin of error and opportunity to succeed are razor thin. They are cornered inti having players with team friendly contracts, players with 0-5 years of service time and reclamations projects. Or put another way....lightning in a bottle. Obviously it's possible as it worked from 13-15. But difficult to repeat and impossible to sustain. I've always said...the number one reason for their success those three years was getting MVP (arguably HOF level) level play from a player with an extremely team friendly contract.
Which leads to my next issue which was not realizing during that three year run what a special and unique opportunity it was and not maximizing or leveraging the situation more. People want to argue the playoffs are all about luck and it's better to remain competitive than go for it. My opinion is where there's certainly a level of luck...talent also plays a part. More importantly...if the Pirates fail to reach the playoffs or be competitive in 17...which appears likely...it makes the "remain competitive" an even larger fallacy as we're looking at a 2nd consecutive losing year.
I think the (self imposed) cap is about 10-15 million more than that. I think they shoot to go into the season at around $95 million so that they have room to make a trade for a big salary guy and take on substantial money for half a year. Last year, they didn't feel it was worth it to add like that, so they payroll stayed low.
They certainly do rely on getting big production without paying market value for it. That's why all of the young players and putting "risky" contracts on those players. Most of those have worked out (McCutchen, Marte, Polanco so far). Some haven't worked out (Tabata, Harrison maybe?). Those aren't huge risks, but that's where they are. With that said, a person can see how imperative it is that they continue a pipeline of young talent that can give high level production at cheap prices. They have to be careful in trading away prospects because they will need to players to produce something for a low amount of money.
At this point, people are getting mad because they aren't signing any new players and the argument is that they aren' raising payroll. They are raising payroll because they are paying all of those young player contracts more money. They were getting the pre-arb money. Now they are into their contracts. In the world of MLB, Marte and Cutch aren't paid much. But they are paid many times more than they were a few years ago.
We'll see where the 17 payroll winds up. But between Melancon, Liriano, Feliz, Locke, Rodriguez, Vogelsong and Joyce they shed about 35 million. Yet needed to dump Liriano for financial flexibility and immediately claimed the 17 budget was going to be tight.
If the Pirates can't or are not willing to increase payroll to a reasonable 110-120....things are bleak. As we are currently seeing....all the predictions of the process exclusively building repeat playoffs contenders through the minors isn't realistic.
I don't know about bleak, but it is a bigger obstacle.
Comparing 2016-2017 the following:
Freese +3.25 million than last year's salary
McCutchen +1 million
Cervelli + 5.5 million
Harrison + 2.5 million
Marte +2.5 million
Bastardo is on the line for about +6.6 million
Cole should get a hefty raise from his base salary...maybe +3 million
That is about $24 million in raises for guys that were already on the team.
And shed an additional 35 million. Meaning they should have at worst 11 million to spend. Or even more if they fulfill the promise of raising payroll. But I suspect we'll see a marginal signing of someone like Daniel Hudson and an opening day payroll around 93 million.
If accurate...we're looking at another losing season. Which only fuels my frustration over not trying to do more to win in 13-15. I was told they couldn't afford to remotely compromise the future because they would still be contending due to the sound process. Yet they didn't do more to win in 13-15 and are no longer winning.
Meaning, the process was flawed and an excuse not to spend.
I'm an unabashed optimist...or at least I try to be. Life is better for me that way.
That said, I can certainly see your perspective. But let me take another perspective. On the other hand, they have a group of hitters that are all in the prime. Seriously, every position is in their prime and aside from Mercer and Bell (who is too young), they have all shown flashes of being an All Star. It is not inconceivable to think that the offense is seriously playoff worthy or even division winning quality.
The pitching looks suspect. Cole was a finalist for the CY two years ago. He has the potential. Taillon looked like a guy who has similar potential. I actually thought Kuhl looked good and slots in well to a rotation. He keeps you in every game and can win some games for you. If Glasnow can learn a slide step and calm his nerves (as he has done after an adjustment period at every level), he could also be a CY candidate. He was more dominant in the minors and has better stuff than both Taillon and Cole. For the fifth spot, they have a handful of guys who have all been very successful in the minors and look to have stuff that will translate into major league success. Hutchison (I know) has more than enough minor league experience. If they pull a Burnett/Happ/Nova with him, he would be a very productive piece in the rotation (gotta hope on that one, right?). Brault/Williams/Duncan/Boscan all look like they could pitch in the majors now and have some success. Kingham is also just at the threshold. He is a former top prospect who allegedly has regained his pre-TJ form. He does have almost 120 AAA innings so it's not as if he needs much, if any, seasoning there.
I know, there are tons of counter arguments about all of that. The point is, it is very realistic that they are successful this year. Pretty much every guy alluded to above is also around for the next number of years. There minor league system isn't as deep as it has been at times, but there are a few guys who look like they may be big impact additions down the road. It isn't that hard to look at this organization and see success now and into the future.
I like what Pmike writes here. the question for me is if the pitchers listed above don't come through (and the Pirates should be able to judge most of them well before the end of spring training) what is the team going to do? Will it try to do something in the spring to strengthen the staff?
Will they do it even if if might cost 10 million?
What about the lineup?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
What about the lineup?
4A5773717F1A0 wrote:
I'm an unabashed optimist...or at least I try to be. Life is better for me that way.
That said, I can certainly see your perspective. But let me take another perspective. On the other hand, they have a group of hitters that are all in the prime. Seriously, every position is in their prime and aside from Mercer and Bell (who is too young), they have all shown flashes of being an All Star. It is not inconceivable to think that the offense is seriously playoff worthy or even division winning quality.
The pitching looks suspect. Cole was a finalist for the CY two years ago. He has the potential. Taillon looked like a guy who has similar potential. I actually thought Kuhl looked good and slots in well to a rotation. He keeps you in every game and can win some games for you. If Glasnow can learn a slide step and calm his nerves (as he has done after an adjustment period at every level), he could also be a CY candidate. He was more dominant in the minors and has better stuff than both Taillon and Cole. For the fifth spot, they have a handful of guys who have all been very successful in the minors and look to have stuff that will translate into major league success. Hutchison (I know) has more than enough minor league experience. If they pull a Burnett/Happ/Nova with him, he would be a very productive piece in the rotation (gotta hope on that one, right?). Brault/Williams/Duncan/Boscan all look like they could pitch in the majors now and have some success. Kingham is also just at the threshold. He is a former top prospect who allegedly has regained his pre-TJ form. He does have almost 120 AAA innings so it's not as if he needs much, if any, seasoning there.
I know, there are tons of counter arguments about all of that. The point is, it is very realistic that they are successful this year. Pretty much every guy alluded to above is also around for the next number of years. There minor league system isn't as deep as it has been at times, but there are a few guys who look like they may be big impact additions down the road. It isn't that hard to look at this organization and see success now and into the future.
I know it's possible that all that could work out. The problem is that it requires Cole to pitch unlike he did last year and requires everyone else to accomplish something they've never done. It seems likely that Cole can revert back to 2015 form and that Taillon can be as effective as he was in 18 starts over the course of an entire season. Kuhl made a good impression in his 14 starts but needs to be as good or better for an entire season. Glasnow arrived with tons of hype and potential but badly disappointed and did not show the ability we expected. Hutchison pitched poorly for Toronto in his career there before losing his roster spot. He needs to show he can pitch well enough to win without the Blue Jays offense bailing him out. Brault and Williams need to show they can be more effective than what they showed briefly. Duncan has yet to throw a pitch in MLB. Boscan is not in the organization. So while there's no evidence that they cannot become a solid rotation, neither is there evidence that they can. It could happen. But it's a lot to hope for considering that Cole is the only one who's already demonstrated that he can do what is needed and even he enters the season with a question mark.
I'm an unabashed optimist...or at least I try to be. Life is better for me that way.
That said, I can certainly see your perspective. But let me take another perspective. On the other hand, they have a group of hitters that are all in the prime. Seriously, every position is in their prime and aside from Mercer and Bell (who is too young), they have all shown flashes of being an All Star. It is not inconceivable to think that the offense is seriously playoff worthy or even division winning quality.
The pitching looks suspect. Cole was a finalist for the CY two years ago. He has the potential. Taillon looked like a guy who has similar potential. I actually thought Kuhl looked good and slots in well to a rotation. He keeps you in every game and can win some games for you. If Glasnow can learn a slide step and calm his nerves (as he has done after an adjustment period at every level), he could also be a CY candidate. He was more dominant in the minors and has better stuff than both Taillon and Cole. For the fifth spot, they have a handful of guys who have all been very successful in the minors and look to have stuff that will translate into major league success. Hutchison (I know) has more than enough minor league experience. If they pull a Burnett/Happ/Nova with him, he would be a very productive piece in the rotation (gotta hope on that one, right?). Brault/Williams/Duncan/Boscan all look like they could pitch in the majors now and have some success. Kingham is also just at the threshold. He is a former top prospect who allegedly has regained his pre-TJ form. He does have almost 120 AAA innings so it's not as if he needs much, if any, seasoning there.
I know, there are tons of counter arguments about all of that. The point is, it is very realistic that they are successful this year. Pretty much every guy alluded to above is also around for the next number of years. There minor league system isn't as deep as it has been at times, but there are a few guys who look like they may be big impact additions down the road. It isn't that hard to look at this organization and see success now and into the future.
I know it's possible that all that could work out. The problem is that it requires Cole to pitch unlike he did last year and requires everyone else to accomplish something they've never done. It seems likely that Cole can revert back to 2015 form and that Taillon can be as effective as he was in 18 starts over the course of an entire season. Kuhl made a good impression in his 14 starts but needs to be as good or better for an entire season. Glasnow arrived with tons of hype and potential but badly disappointed and did not show the ability we expected. Hutchison pitched poorly for Toronto in his career there before losing his roster spot. He needs to show he can pitch well enough to win without the Blue Jays offense bailing him out. Brault and Williams need to show they can be more effective than what they showed briefly. Duncan has yet to throw a pitch in MLB. Boscan is not in the organization. So while there's no evidence that they cannot become a solid rotation, neither is there evidence that they can. It could happen. But it's a lot to hope for considering that Cole is the only one who's already demonstrated that he can do what is needed and even he enters the season with a question mark.
What about the lineup?
Might as well be debating if jhay will win a batting title. There's more likelihood of that fluke year happening again and him pulling it out than there is of this pitching staff being any better than mediocre
This pie in the sky stuff being discussed is a relic to the days of the losing season streak. We were past this just two seasons ago. Now we're back to crossing fingers with, basically, scrubs
Dumping Frankie was a huge, huge mistake. If we were to reverse that trade right now, NH would be praised as the best GM in baseball for fleecing the twins.
This pie in the sky stuff being discussed is a relic to the days of the losing season streak. We were past this just two seasons ago. Now we're back to crossing fingers with, basically, scrubs
Dumping Frankie was a huge, huge mistake. If we were to reverse that trade right now, NH would be praised as the best GM in baseball for fleecing the twins.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
674A47565140571714250 wrote:
I'm an unabashed optimist...or at least I try to be. Life is better for me that way.
That said, I can certainly see your perspective. But let me take another perspective. On the other hand, they have a group of hitters that are all in the prime. Seriously, every position is in their prime and aside from Mercer and Bell (who is too young), they have all shown flashes of being an All Star. It is not inconceivable to think that the offense is seriously playoff worthy or even division winning quality.
The pitching looks suspect. Cole was a finalist for the CY two years ago. He has the potential. Taillon looked like a guy who has similar potential. I actually thought Kuhl looked good and slots in well to a rotation. He keeps you in every game and can win some games for you. If Glasnow can learn a slide step and calm his nerves (as he has done after an adjustment period at every level), he could also be a CY candidate. He was more dominant in the minors and has better stuff than both Taillon and Cole. For the fifth spot, they have a handful of guys who have all been very successful in the minors and look to have stuff that will translate into major league success. Hutchison (I know) has more than enough minor league experience. If they pull a Burnett/Happ/Nova with him, he would be a very productive piece in the rotation (gotta hope on that one, right?). Brault/Williams/Duncan/Boscan all look like they could pitch in the majors now and have some success. Kingham is also just at the threshold. He is a former top prospect who allegedly has regained his pre-TJ form. He does have almost 120 AAA innings so it's not as if he needs much, if any, seasoning there.
I know, there are tons of counter arguments about all of that. The point is, it is very realistic that they are successful this year. Pretty much every guy alluded to above is also around for the next number of years. There minor league system isn't as deep as it has been at times, but there are a few guys who look like they may be big impact additions down the road. It isn't that hard to look at this organization and see success now and into the future.
I know it's possible that all that could work out. The problem is that it requires Cole to pitch unlike he did last year and requires everyone else to accomplish something they've never done. It seems likely that Cole can revert back to 2015 form and that Taillon can be as effective as he was in 18 starts over the course of an entire season. Kuhl made a good impression in his 14 starts but needs to be as good or better for an entire season. Glasnow arrived with tons of hype and potential but badly disappointed and did not show the ability we expected. Hutchison pitched poorly for Toronto in his career there before losing his roster spot. He needs to show he can pitch well enough to win without the Blue Jays offense bailing him out. Brault and Williams need to show they can be more effective than what they showed briefly. Duncan has yet to throw a pitch in MLB. Boscan is not in the organization. So while there's no evidence that they cannot become a solid rotation, neither is there evidence that they can. It could happen. But it's a lot to hope for considering that Cole is the only one who's already demonstrated that he can do what is needed and even he enters the season with a question mark.
Which goes back to the question that I find unbelievablely frustrating: if the line up is as good as PMike (and myself and others in this thread) believe it is, WHY IN THE WORLD ALLOW IT TO VERY POTENTLY BE WASTED??? There is no excuse for this FO to allow this team to go into the season with so many questions with the rotation and yet one of the smallest payrolls in MLB.
This is exactly the point Aaron is making, and I'm in complete agreement: this IS the time to spend or there will never be a time.
PMike's analysis is good and I agree with the possible up-side for the Pirates. But by what I can't agree with, and frankly I can't understand anyone that preaches this line of reasoning, is making the claim FOR Bob Nutting that because "it could happen (lightening in the bottle) then the Pirates have done enough to create the opportunity.
Even if the Pirates MAY have a good team, they could be a GREAT team. But so many on here just srug shoulders and accept what they've been told.
I'm an unabashed optimist...or at least I try to be. Life is better for me that way.
That said, I can certainly see your perspective. But let me take another perspective. On the other hand, they have a group of hitters that are all in the prime. Seriously, every position is in their prime and aside from Mercer and Bell (who is too young), they have all shown flashes of being an All Star. It is not inconceivable to think that the offense is seriously playoff worthy or even division winning quality.
The pitching looks suspect. Cole was a finalist for the CY two years ago. He has the potential. Taillon looked like a guy who has similar potential. I actually thought Kuhl looked good and slots in well to a rotation. He keeps you in every game and can win some games for you. If Glasnow can learn a slide step and calm his nerves (as he has done after an adjustment period at every level), he could also be a CY candidate. He was more dominant in the minors and has better stuff than both Taillon and Cole. For the fifth spot, they have a handful of guys who have all been very successful in the minors and look to have stuff that will translate into major league success. Hutchison (I know) has more than enough minor league experience. If they pull a Burnett/Happ/Nova with him, he would be a very productive piece in the rotation (gotta hope on that one, right?). Brault/Williams/Duncan/Boscan all look like they could pitch in the majors now and have some success. Kingham is also just at the threshold. He is a former top prospect who allegedly has regained his pre-TJ form. He does have almost 120 AAA innings so it's not as if he needs much, if any, seasoning there.
I know, there are tons of counter arguments about all of that. The point is, it is very realistic that they are successful this year. Pretty much every guy alluded to above is also around for the next number of years. There minor league system isn't as deep as it has been at times, but there are a few guys who look like they may be big impact additions down the road. It isn't that hard to look at this organization and see success now and into the future.
I know it's possible that all that could work out. The problem is that it requires Cole to pitch unlike he did last year and requires everyone else to accomplish something they've never done. It seems likely that Cole can revert back to 2015 form and that Taillon can be as effective as he was in 18 starts over the course of an entire season. Kuhl made a good impression in his 14 starts but needs to be as good or better for an entire season. Glasnow arrived with tons of hype and potential but badly disappointed and did not show the ability we expected. Hutchison pitched poorly for Toronto in his career there before losing his roster spot. He needs to show he can pitch well enough to win without the Blue Jays offense bailing him out. Brault and Williams need to show they can be more effective than what they showed briefly. Duncan has yet to throw a pitch in MLB. Boscan is not in the organization. So while there's no evidence that they cannot become a solid rotation, neither is there evidence that they can. It could happen. But it's a lot to hope for considering that Cole is the only one who's already demonstrated that he can do what is needed and even he enters the season with a question mark.
Which goes back to the question that I find unbelievablely frustrating: if the line up is as good as PMike (and myself and others in this thread) believe it is, WHY IN THE WORLD ALLOW IT TO VERY POTENTLY BE WASTED??? There is no excuse for this FO to allow this team to go into the season with so many questions with the rotation and yet one of the smallest payrolls in MLB.
This is exactly the point Aaron is making, and I'm in complete agreement: this IS the time to spend or there will never be a time.
PMike's analysis is good and I agree with the possible up-side for the Pirates. But by what I can't agree with, and frankly I can't understand anyone that preaches this line of reasoning, is making the claim FOR Bob Nutting that because "it could happen (lightening in the bottle) then the Pirates have done enough to create the opportunity.
Even if the Pirates MAY have a good team, they could be a GREAT team. But so many on here just srug shoulders and accept what they've been told.
What about the lineup?
The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
What about the lineup?
514C686A64010 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
I also think the team is close and why management shouldn't approach 2017 as another bridge year. I'm afraid management is going to say close is good enough rather than doing something to make the team better.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
I also think the team is close and why management shouldn't approach 2017 as another bridge year. I'm afraid management is going to say close is good enough rather than doing something to make the team better.
What about the lineup?
44597D7F71140 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
They need a starting pitcher. They said they are in talks with a bunch of them. Why don't people believe they won't sign someone? They have signed or traded for one every year going back to 2012.
Liriano is not the answer. People defend Liriano because he was dumped. He was awful last year. He needed the change to a different league. Liriano was a huge reason why the 2016 team lost.
I think the plan is pretty simple. We have seen it before. They will sign/trade for a starter. Then come Super 2 they will bring up a ready Glasnow. The weakest starter will be replaced or an injury will open up a spot. Then they will look at the trade deadline to see who they can get to help even more.
This plan has worked three out of the last four seasons. But for some reason, people are dwelling on the one season it didn't work? And people are upset that the biggest failure when it didn't work is no longer a Pirate.
Liriano is not the answer. People defend Liriano because he was dumped. He was awful last year. He needed the change to a different league. Liriano was a huge reason why the 2016 team lost.
I think the plan is pretty simple. We have seen it before. They will sign/trade for a starter. Then come Super 2 they will bring up a ready Glasnow. The weakest starter will be replaced or an injury will open up a spot. Then they will look at the trade deadline to see who they can get to help even more.
This plan has worked three out of the last four seasons. But for some reason, people are dwelling on the one season it didn't work? And people are upset that the biggest failure when it didn't work is no longer a Pirate.
What about the lineup?
5474677A7B150 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
What about the lineup?
120F2B2927420 wrote: The Pirates offense is not the problem. It just isn't. They won 98 games two years ago with an offense that scored less runs than last year. And last year's "better" offense happened with McCutchen having a down year, Marte not hitting for power, Harrison not hitting at career norms and Kang having all sorts of problems. Not to mention oft injured Cervelli. Thinking/assuming the offense will be good is hardly pie in the sky thinking.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.
I don't think there is anyone who follows this franchise who thinks the pitching is good enough right now. My earlier post is simply an approach that sees the positive possibilities that lie in what we have.
To think that adding Liriano back into the rotation is the answer...well, I disagree with that one. But what do I know?
I'm comfortable cobbling together a bullpen. But I have long said (and pretty much so has everyone else here) that they need to add a SP (or more). I don't think there is a FA pitcher that solves this problem. Sadly, I think that will be the result that the FO will actually execute. If I were in charge, I'd look to trade Marte or McCutchen or Meadows for a SP. That solves their biggest problem immediately. It's also our position of depth.
IMO, this team is very close.
This isn't necessarily directed at you as it appears to be a widely viewed opinion among Pirate fans. But there are simply a number of contradictions in your post.
You claim to be hopeful with a group of either unproven or unproductive SP, but claim Liriano won't help. The same Liriano who put up similar numbers to Ivan Nova after the trade deadline. The same Ivan Nova many fans have lobbied to sign to a multi-year deal.
In addition to being hopeful for a wildly risky collection of SP, you claim one free agent SO won't be enough. How can you believe a rotation of Brault, Kuhl or Hutchison is good enough but adding a quality free agent SP is not?
Lastly you say how close this team is after just saying one free agent SP won't be enough. If the team is as close as you would like us to believe, how is adding a potentially quality SP not enough?
I say this with all due respect, but you've fallen victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and constantly perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd. So many fans are conditioned to defend what the Pirates do ("I'm hopeful for a rotation of Brault, Kuhn and Hutchison" and "I don't like Liriano") while also defending what they don't do ("one free agent SP won't matter" and "the Pirates don't have any money")
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Claiming that one could be hopeful with the young pitching depth and not thinking that Liriano is the answer are not mutually exclusive points. You are absolutely right on Liriano's production post trade. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. He wasn't just bad before the trade, he was really bad. I didn't like the trade at all. I also hated him pitching every fifth day. I guess this point comes down to whether you think he will rebound. I don't, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. He certainly has the stuff.
Quick side point, my argument above was why some people have argued on behalf of all of those young pitchers. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be a prudent decision to exclusively rely on them at this point.
I didn't claim that one SP would not be enough. I said they need to add a SP or more. I would be comfortable with a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Carrasco/Salazar/Archer, Kuhl, Glasnow and the others as depth. I'm ready to roll with Glasnow now. That's only one legit SP with the typical reclamation projects.
Aaron, I appreciate your posts. I appreciate the others who take (and have taken) pessimistic views of the team on this board over the years. That stirs up good conversation. I find myself taking the extreme opposite perspective sometimes not because I necessarily hold it, but because it creates better dialogue. That said, please don't group me in with being "victim to a narrative created by the Pirates and perpetuated by people like Tim Williams and David Todd." I do read Tim among many others. I've never read David Todd. Probably like you, I watch and follow this organization more than enough to formulate my own opinions. My thoughts and opinions change over time. It would be just as inappropriate for me to group you into the "yinzer Nutting is cheap" crowd.
Post on, friend!
I have no issue with someone being optimistic....we all have our own philosophical slant on baseball and life. But I do have issue with it being the philosophy behind the Pirates off season strategy. There needs to be a more realistic and sound strategy if they truly want to improve and contend.
I love baseball discussions and debate and appreciate the sharing of other opinions and viewpoints. But I do have a problem with someone so blinded by their own optimism they're no longer able to be objective. I'm happy to debate with someone who believes the world is flat and hear why the believe it's true. But I can't tolerate the denial of facts and logic or the manipulation of data to support their agenda. And that's my issue with people like Tim Williams and David Todd.
I guess what I'm saying is be careful not to confuse your own optimism with real world practical application. Don't let your unbridled hope cloud the facts and prevent you from remaining objective. Don't let what you want to believe allow you to become intellectually disingenuous.
Specifically, we saw a failed strategy and process last season. Despite people wanting to blame the failures on Liriano and/or Cole, the bigger issue was believing Locke, Niese, Nicasio and Vogelsong constructed a reliable rotion. And hoping both Taillon and Glasnow would be immediately ready to step in should any of those struggle. There was simply too much evidence suggesting the former group was not good and illogical to suggest 2 rookies (one with a pitch limit) would immediately contribute. We know this because it was criticized when it was implemented and eventually failed. And on December 18th, it appears they're using the same strategy. Only the names have changed. We can hope all we want for it to work differently this time, but that shouldn't prevent us from either questioning it or being skeptical.