If any team loses their top three pitchers, they are done.
Do you think the Cubs can survive without Lester and Arrieta? Who replaces them: Montgomery, Lackey, Anderson?
What about the Cardinals? Is Wainwright fully healthy? Wacha too? What if Martinez goes down? They will have Reyes and Leake carrying their rotation.
The difference with the Pirates is that they have some young talent to fill in. But you are right, if the Pirates lose Cole, Taillon, or Nova for a good portion they are in trouble. Just like every other team if they lose their top three pitchers.
Starting Pitching Depth
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SammyKhalifa
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565D55595C5D460305724B535A5D5D1C515D320 wrote: If any team loses their top three pitchers, they are done.
Do you think the Cubs can survive without Lester and Arrieta? Who replaces them: Montgomery, Lackey, Anderson?
What about the Cardinals? Is Wainwright fully healthy? Wacha too? What if Martinez goes down? They will have Reyes and Leake carrying their rotation.
The difference with the Pirates is that they have some young talent to fill in. But you are right, if the Pirates lose Cole, Taillon, or Nova for a good portion they are in trouble. Just like every other team if they lose their top three pitchers.
John Lackey would arguably be our #1 or 2 starter coming out of ST.
Do you think the Cubs can survive without Lester and Arrieta? Who replaces them: Montgomery, Lackey, Anderson?
What about the Cardinals? Is Wainwright fully healthy? Wacha too? What if Martinez goes down? They will have Reyes and Leake carrying their rotation.
The difference with the Pirates is that they have some young talent to fill in. But you are right, if the Pirates lose Cole, Taillon, or Nova for a good portion they are in trouble. Just like every other team if they lose their top three pitchers.
John Lackey would arguably be our #1 or 2 starter coming out of ST.
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UtahPirate
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Starting Pitching Depth
696162554366414E200 wrote: I know the conversation has switched to Glasnow, but to take it back to it's origins ... we really need a lefty as a SP and I don't think Quintana is headed here any time soon.
Jorge De La Rossa is still out there in the FA market. Would he benefit from pitching at PNC? He's spent his whole career in Colorado which makes it hard to get a grip on him. He was pretty good several years ago -- but at 35 it seems his best years have passed. Is he a good reclamation candidate? I hate to start the season by running 5 RHPs out there. Who is left?
Jeff Locke?
Seriously, I do agree that we need a lefty in the rotation. We have a plethora of them in the pen, but we need one taking the ball every fifth day. Now, I'm not an advocate of having a lefty just for the sake of having a lefty. If we had five studs who all threw with their right hand, great. But, we don't. We've got two, a third who should be pretty decent, and a bunch of question marks.
I have no idea who they could acquire at this stage of the game. Personally, I'm glad we've seemingly passed on Quintana. Obviously, none of us know for sure, but it sure sounds to me like the Sox wanted too much for him. But, there are others out there.
Here are four names (in order of likelihood) that I think NH should at least kick the tires on:
1. Garrett Richards--coming off an injury and I think is a pending free agent. I think he could be a great bounce back candidate. The Angels have a tough road in front of them. They have a ton of money tied up in an aging Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. But even with the best player on the planet, they have a ton of holes and the consensus worst farm system in MLB. They might entertain offers to restock their farm, and given that Richards is a pending FA coming off an injury, it might not take much.
2. Jake Odorizzi--is an Arb. 1 player. Now that they've acquired DeLeon and are in the tough AL East, the Rays might also be looking to the future. I'd think they'd entertain offers on Odorizzi.
3. Sonny Gray--probably seen as untouchable from Oakland's standpoint. But, he's coming off a down year, is first year arbitration eligible (I think) and Oakland doesn't look to be competitive any time soon. Perhaps they would entertain offers for him?
4. Chris Archer--see Odorizzi above, but signed to a longer deal. He has five years left on his contract. Plus, he's a better pitcher. So, what would have to go back to Tampa would be more than for JO. But, again, I could see the Rays listening to offers.
All of these guys are right handed. Frankly, I don't see a deal being made for any of them. It's just not the Pirates MO. I think we roll with a rotation of Cole-Taillon-Nova-Kuhl-??? and see what happens. We're really missing a #4 starter. Kuhl is fine as a #5 guy. Everyone else, assuming they play up to ability is fine 1-3. It's that #4 guy that is lacking.
Interesting name. The biggest problem is that the Angels just don't seem to know who they are. It seems pretty obvious that they need to start dumping MLB players and retooling their minor league system ... yet they want to hang on to some fleeting hope that they can compete (and the best player in baseball).
I think our FO likes their youthful depth for arms after the starting 5, but it just seems like we need another arm in that top group. I don't know what to think of Hutchison. History says he is pretty average, but the Brass claim there is something they like and think can fix. I wish he had pitched better when he came up in September - done something to show the trust they put in him.
Get a lefty! Only whom?
Jorge De La Rossa is still out there in the FA market. Would he benefit from pitching at PNC? He's spent his whole career in Colorado which makes it hard to get a grip on him. He was pretty good several years ago -- but at 35 it seems his best years have passed. Is he a good reclamation candidate? I hate to start the season by running 5 RHPs out there. Who is left?
Jeff Locke?
Seriously, I do agree that we need a lefty in the rotation. We have a plethora of them in the pen, but we need one taking the ball every fifth day. Now, I'm not an advocate of having a lefty just for the sake of having a lefty. If we had five studs who all threw with their right hand, great. But, we don't. We've got two, a third who should be pretty decent, and a bunch of question marks.
I have no idea who they could acquire at this stage of the game. Personally, I'm glad we've seemingly passed on Quintana. Obviously, none of us know for sure, but it sure sounds to me like the Sox wanted too much for him. But, there are others out there.
Here are four names (in order of likelihood) that I think NH should at least kick the tires on:
1. Garrett Richards--coming off an injury and I think is a pending free agent. I think he could be a great bounce back candidate. The Angels have a tough road in front of them. They have a ton of money tied up in an aging Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. But even with the best player on the planet, they have a ton of holes and the consensus worst farm system in MLB. They might entertain offers to restock their farm, and given that Richards is a pending FA coming off an injury, it might not take much.
2. Jake Odorizzi--is an Arb. 1 player. Now that they've acquired DeLeon and are in the tough AL East, the Rays might also be looking to the future. I'd think they'd entertain offers on Odorizzi.
3. Sonny Gray--probably seen as untouchable from Oakland's standpoint. But, he's coming off a down year, is first year arbitration eligible (I think) and Oakland doesn't look to be competitive any time soon. Perhaps they would entertain offers for him?
4. Chris Archer--see Odorizzi above, but signed to a longer deal. He has five years left on his contract. Plus, he's a better pitcher. So, what would have to go back to Tampa would be more than for JO. But, again, I could see the Rays listening to offers.
All of these guys are right handed. Frankly, I don't see a deal being made for any of them. It's just not the Pirates MO. I think we roll with a rotation of Cole-Taillon-Nova-Kuhl-??? and see what happens. We're really missing a #4 starter. Kuhl is fine as a #5 guy. Everyone else, assuming they play up to ability is fine 1-3. It's that #4 guy that is lacking.
Interesting name. The biggest problem is that the Angels just don't seem to know who they are. It seems pretty obvious that they need to start dumping MLB players and retooling their minor league system ... yet they want to hang on to some fleeting hope that they can compete (and the best player in baseball).
I think our FO likes their youthful depth for arms after the starting 5, but it just seems like we need another arm in that top group. I don't know what to think of Hutchison. History says he is pretty average, but the Brass claim there is something they like and think can fix. I wish he had pitched better when he came up in September - done something to show the trust they put in him.
Get a lefty! Only whom?
Starting Pitching Depth
1E2C20203406252C21242B2C4D0 wrote: Oh, you are using everything I said going into last year? I thought we were staying on the Glasnow topic.
I never said I liked the moves last off season, I understood them. The problem wasn't Vogelsong. The problem was Cole and Liriano. The Niese trade was bad too. I never liked trading Walker for him. I guess we all saw McCutchen and Cervelli to have a down year too? Harrison and Jaso too? No wait, I was right about them.
Your 86 win prediction was wrong too. You must have thought they were a playoff team too to predict that many wins. The Wild Card teams won 87 games.
Trying to prove me wrong all the time might ruin your fun and have you rooting against the Pirates. Don't do that to yourself. Be stress free.
Everything isn't about you. In fact, nothing is about you, it's about this baseball team and what they plan to do to compete with the cubs and Cards.
This is 2015 strategy all over again. We're weak with starting pitching. Cole had arm fatigue last year and I'm telling you right now, isn't getting through the season unscathed to plan on it is stupidity. Taillon is in sophomore year and was in danger zone with his innings count last year. Nova was a bad pitcher throughout his career except for his not even half a season here. This is the guaranteed 1-3 you're counting on for sure??? All 3 of them to perform well and miss injury?? NO! Contingency plans are needed.
We better plan accordingly and a team looking for a championship SHOULD be acquiring another starting pitcher of established ML value as a fallback plan, not relying on a bunch of very modest prospects to fill #4 and #5 of the rotation and praying for perpetual health of 1-3.
If the goal is to have NL average at best numbers from the starting rotation, we're right on track.
I agree with your general feeling (we need another pitcher) but to be absolutely fair, Nova was a more-or-less average pitcher before coming here, not terrible really.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... iv01.shtml
But yeah, counting on everything to go right is no way to go.
No he really wasn't average. He had a great 24 year old season and put up a 4.78 ERA from 2014 through the 2016 season. That's even including his awesome finish with us last year.
As a right hander pitching in yankee stadium in the AL, those numbers are inflated vs NL in a vacuum, but that's not what I would call as solid starting pitcher the last 3 seasons. I'm with you though, and I'm NOT trying to downtalk Nova. glad he's here. There's a good chance he will be a solid starter. But there are definitely some flags on him that make it not that certain that he's not going to just lose it again.
I hate our strategies the past season and this one. We were right friggen there... and didn't need all this hope and prayer stuff. We gambled last year and it burnt us badly. Now we're gambling again and we have an offense with enormous potential.. we're going to gamble with the rotation again urgh!
I never said I liked the moves last off season, I understood them. The problem wasn't Vogelsong. The problem was Cole and Liriano. The Niese trade was bad too. I never liked trading Walker for him. I guess we all saw McCutchen and Cervelli to have a down year too? Harrison and Jaso too? No wait, I was right about them.
Your 86 win prediction was wrong too. You must have thought they were a playoff team too to predict that many wins. The Wild Card teams won 87 games.
Trying to prove me wrong all the time might ruin your fun and have you rooting against the Pirates. Don't do that to yourself. Be stress free.
Everything isn't about you. In fact, nothing is about you, it's about this baseball team and what they plan to do to compete with the cubs and Cards.
This is 2015 strategy all over again. We're weak with starting pitching. Cole had arm fatigue last year and I'm telling you right now, isn't getting through the season unscathed to plan on it is stupidity. Taillon is in sophomore year and was in danger zone with his innings count last year. Nova was a bad pitcher throughout his career except for his not even half a season here. This is the guaranteed 1-3 you're counting on for sure??? All 3 of them to perform well and miss injury?? NO! Contingency plans are needed.
We better plan accordingly and a team looking for a championship SHOULD be acquiring another starting pitcher of established ML value as a fallback plan, not relying on a bunch of very modest prospects to fill #4 and #5 of the rotation and praying for perpetual health of 1-3.
If the goal is to have NL average at best numbers from the starting rotation, we're right on track.
I agree with your general feeling (we need another pitcher) but to be absolutely fair, Nova was a more-or-less average pitcher before coming here, not terrible really.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... iv01.shtml
But yeah, counting on everything to go right is no way to go.
No he really wasn't average. He had a great 24 year old season and put up a 4.78 ERA from 2014 through the 2016 season. That's even including his awesome finish with us last year.
As a right hander pitching in yankee stadium in the AL, those numbers are inflated vs NL in a vacuum, but that's not what I would call as solid starting pitcher the last 3 seasons. I'm with you though, and I'm NOT trying to downtalk Nova. glad he's here. There's a good chance he will be a solid starter. But there are definitely some flags on him that make it not that certain that he's not going to just lose it again.
I hate our strategies the past season and this one. We were right friggen there... and didn't need all this hope and prayer stuff. We gambled last year and it burnt us badly. Now we're gambling again and we have an offense with enormous potential.. we're going to gamble with the rotation again urgh!
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SammyKhalifa
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- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Starting Pitching Depth
272E263739430 wrote: Oh, you are using everything I said going into last year? I thought we were staying on the Glasnow topic.
I never said I liked the moves last off season, I understood them. The problem wasn't Vogelsong. The problem was Cole and Liriano. The Niese trade was bad too. I never liked trading Walker for him. I guess we all saw McCutchen and Cervelli to have a down year too? Harrison and Jaso too? No wait, I was right about them.
Your 86 win prediction was wrong too. You must have thought they were a playoff team too to predict that many wins. The Wild Card teams won 87 games.
Trying to prove me wrong all the time might ruin your fun and have you rooting against the Pirates. Don't do that to yourself. Be stress free.
Everything isn't about you. In fact, nothing is about you, it's about this baseball team and what they plan to do to compete with the cubs and Cards.
This is 2015 strategy all over again. We're weak with starting pitching. Cole had arm fatigue last year and I'm telling you right now, isn't getting through the season unscathed to plan on it is stupidity. Taillon is in sophomore year and was in danger zone with his innings count last year. Nova was a bad pitcher throughout his career except for his not even half a season here. This is the guaranteed 1-3 you're counting on for sure??? All 3 of them to perform well and miss injury?? NO! Contingency plans are needed.
We better plan accordingly and a team looking for a championship SHOULD be acquiring another starting pitcher of established ML value as a fallback plan, not relying on a bunch of very modest prospects to fill #4 and #5 of the rotation and praying for perpetual health of 1-3.
If the goal is to have NL average at best numbers from the starting rotation, we're right on track.
I agree with your general feeling (we need another pitcher) but to be absolutely fair, Nova was a more-or-less average pitcher before coming here, not terrible really.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... iv01.shtml
But yeah, counting on everything to go right is no way to go.
No he really wasn't average. He had a great 24 year old season and put up a 4.78 ERA from 2014 through the 2016 season. That's even including his awesome finish with us last year.
As a right hander pitching in yankee stadium in the AL, those numbers are inflated vs NL in a vacuum, but that's not what I would call as solid starting pitcher the last 3 seasons. I'm with you though, and I'm NOT trying to downtalk Nova. glad he's here. There's a good chance he will be a solid starter. But there are definitely some flags on him that make it not that certain that he's not going to just lose it again.
I hate our strategies the past season and this one. We were right friggen there... and didn't need all this hope and prayer stuff. We gambled last year and it burnt us badly. Now we're gambling again and we have an offense with enormous potential.. we're going to gamble with the rotation again urgh!
Yeah, one more starter. It doesn't even have to be someone like Q if they think the price is too high to satisfy me, just a starter.
I never said I liked the moves last off season, I understood them. The problem wasn't Vogelsong. The problem was Cole and Liriano. The Niese trade was bad too. I never liked trading Walker for him. I guess we all saw McCutchen and Cervelli to have a down year too? Harrison and Jaso too? No wait, I was right about them.
Your 86 win prediction was wrong too. You must have thought they were a playoff team too to predict that many wins. The Wild Card teams won 87 games.
Trying to prove me wrong all the time might ruin your fun and have you rooting against the Pirates. Don't do that to yourself. Be stress free.
Everything isn't about you. In fact, nothing is about you, it's about this baseball team and what they plan to do to compete with the cubs and Cards.
This is 2015 strategy all over again. We're weak with starting pitching. Cole had arm fatigue last year and I'm telling you right now, isn't getting through the season unscathed to plan on it is stupidity. Taillon is in sophomore year and was in danger zone with his innings count last year. Nova was a bad pitcher throughout his career except for his not even half a season here. This is the guaranteed 1-3 you're counting on for sure??? All 3 of them to perform well and miss injury?? NO! Contingency plans are needed.
We better plan accordingly and a team looking for a championship SHOULD be acquiring another starting pitcher of established ML value as a fallback plan, not relying on a bunch of very modest prospects to fill #4 and #5 of the rotation and praying for perpetual health of 1-3.
If the goal is to have NL average at best numbers from the starting rotation, we're right on track.
I agree with your general feeling (we need another pitcher) but to be absolutely fair, Nova was a more-or-less average pitcher before coming here, not terrible really.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... iv01.shtml
But yeah, counting on everything to go right is no way to go.
No he really wasn't average. He had a great 24 year old season and put up a 4.78 ERA from 2014 through the 2016 season. That's even including his awesome finish with us last year.
As a right hander pitching in yankee stadium in the AL, those numbers are inflated vs NL in a vacuum, but that's not what I would call as solid starting pitcher the last 3 seasons. I'm with you though, and I'm NOT trying to downtalk Nova. glad he's here. There's a good chance he will be a solid starter. But there are definitely some flags on him that make it not that certain that he's not going to just lose it again.
I hate our strategies the past season and this one. We were right friggen there... and didn't need all this hope and prayer stuff. We gambled last year and it burnt us badly. Now we're gambling again and we have an offense with enormous potential.. we're going to gamble with the rotation again urgh!
Yeah, one more starter. It doesn't even have to be someone like Q if they think the price is too high to satisfy me, just a starter.
Starting Pitching Depth
Agree 100%. It doesn't have to be anyone great. I saw people mentioning Jason Hammel, but unfortunately KC just signed him to a two year 16. But someone like that would have been fine in this situation. That's a good value signing for KC.
He's a guy with pedestrian career numbers but his recent work on a good team has been very solid. Even someone like that would make all the difference in the world when the inevitable injuries strike.
Starting pitcher with experience. Low 4.00 ERA type. Veteran. I would prefer someone from the AL so we get the league improvement right off the bat.
He's a guy with pedestrian career numbers but his recent work on a good team has been very solid. Even someone like that would make all the difference in the world when the inevitable injuries strike.
Starting pitcher with experience. Low 4.00 ERA type. Veteran. I would prefer someone from the AL so we get the league improvement right off the bat.