OnlyBucs

Sell.  This year is done, and next doesn't look better.  Sell anyone with 2 years or less that you can't/don't want to sign to an extension.  This year was a marginal crapshoot from the beginning, and now with Kang and Marte out, it's nothing less than wishful thinking to believe we'll get another chance to lose another wild card game.



I don't want to say this, but I believe we're done already.  If you can get value for someone - Cutch, Cole, or other short-timers - do it. Maybe if we put out feelers now, someone would love to have Cutch, or especially Cole, for a large portion of the season.  Not a lot of other players on the market yet either, so if someone wants him, there's not a lot of alternatives.



Damn shame to do this before May, but I think it's the smart thing to do.  Now, I'm not saying GIVE them away, but if we can improve the team in the future, it's worth entertaining offers.  The window is closed.  Too many TJ surgeries, Cutch faded surprisingly fast and early, and Marte played with needles.  Our big score that might have put us over the top should our other players have kept it together, Kang, turned out to be an irresponsible fool who blew his chance to be a MLB star.



We won't get the wild card.  We won't play .500.  Get value while and where we can.  The Cutch window has closed.

There is absolutely no reason to sell at this point in the season. It's April. The return on McCutchen, Cole, or others isn't going to be more now than at the trade deadline. Wait another month or two and see what you've got. Both at the MLB level and at AAA.

7F786E66687F38344D6A606C6461236E62600D0 wrote: Somewhere here we talked about trading major pieces that might bring us some unique up and coming as well as established talent.



That though brings me back almost 58years when my Bucs led by GM Joe L. Brown totally disappointed me as a 10 yr old.  They traded away my favorite Pirate and the team's best player one Frank Thomas.  Thomas was a power hitting 3B/LF who had led the Bucs in HR and RBIs in 1958.  Along with Thomas the Bucs parted with minor RHP Whammy Douglas, Johnny Powers a LH hitting OF/PH who hit below the Mendoza Line before it was the Mendoza Line and right handed OF/3B/PH Jim Pendelton to the Cincinnati Redlegs for uh 3 guys who would help the Bucs make history.  Don "The Tiger" Hoak a righty swinging 3B who earned his nickname because of his toughness, lefty swinging catcher/PH named Forrest Harrill Burgess aka "Smoky".  A great pinch hitter who could get out of bed, come to bat and get a hit Bob Prince used to say.  Finally there was a little "Kitten" obtained in LHP Harvey Haddix.  Called the "Kitten" because of his resemblance to and his great fielding ability to a similar guy Harry "The Cat" Breechen. 



Haddix is most known for his  12 perfect inning game against the Braves on 5/26/59.  The game was decided in the 13th inning on a Joe Adcock double.  Braves win 1-0.  The Bucs were shutout despite racking up 12 hits.   The Box Score



All three guys were instrumental in the Bucs winning the WS in 1960.  In fact Haddix was the winner of game 7 after Maz's HR.



I look back to those simpler days when being a baseball fan was fun.  You rooted for your team and cheered when they won and cried and moaned when they lost but you never ever quit rooting for them and going to games.



Now adays with all the tech involved in not just baseball but all sports it has become more of a pain to watch a game on tv and even at the park.  I could go on about those two things but I wont because I love the game and the Pirates.  I hope that some of you younger guys can take a break from all the stats and just sit back and relax and watch a great game and a bunch of guys who get paid lots of money to "play" and most of who are giving it all they got to win.



For me the dream that I have would to be able to go back to my child hood and sit in the stands at Forbes Field with my dad keeping score in the official scorebook, eating popcorn and having fun with dad and the Bucs.




Darn Possum, you go off and write the post of the year.  It makes me want to go off and have a beer or a diet Coke with Mr Nutting (I'll be buying of course) and forget about finances, PNC's too-small video board and the cost of a decent bench player; just enjoy the game.  The game became so big and the world changed so much, that those simple times are gone for ever. Nothing is the same as those 1960 Pirates, except the game itself; but the game hasn't changed at all.  First order of business - enjoy the game no matter who's making a fortune off the team.  And enjoy a good, if not a great, team.



Second, I wonder if the Pirates win the 60 WS if Thomas isn't traded?  I don't know what was behind the Thomas trade, but it was obviously a huge deal to Pirate fans when it happened- how can you trade away a bat like that?  And for what?



Thank you for pointing out that sometimes you have to make big moves if you want to win big.  Time for the Pirates to make some big moves if they want to win big.  Sitting on this team is a sure sign of trying to stay competitive and hoping rather than trying to build a WS winner.


VA, here's some background on the Frank Thomas trade. Thomas was the Pirates' true star player. In 1958, he was 2nd in the NL in HRs and RBIs, finished 4th in the MVP voting and led the Bucs to their first winning season in 10 years. After being the laughingstock of MLB for the past decade, the Pirates finished 2nd in 1958 thanks largely to Thomas. And GM Joe Brown wanted to address the team's needs and take the Pirates to another level. The 1958 team did not have a LH starter. Hank Foiles was a good defensive catcher who, aside from 1957, was a very weak hitter. He batted .205 in 1958. And despite his great hitting, Thomas was weak defensively at 3B. He was 29. He also had a hand injury which he disclosed to the Reds upon being traded. But it's unclear if this had anything to do with the trade.



The Reds were the ideal trade partner for Brown. They were looking for another slugger to pair with young Frank Robinson. They also had the great hitting catcher Smoky Burgess (age 31) who was expendable because Ed Bailey was younger, better defensively and, like Burgess, a LH batter. With the Pirates in need of a LH starting pitcher, the Reds were willing to deal 32 year old veteran Haddix. And to replace Thomas at 3B, the Bucs could have journeyman Don Hoak (age 31). Hoak would greatly improve the Pirates' infiield defense at 3B but was an inconsistent hitter who had enjoyed only 1 standout season with the bat (1957).



So the Bucs obtained 3 veterans, all 30+, to fill the team's needs and to try to build on their successful 1958 season. The rest of the trade involved throw-ins. Powers was a minor league slugger who didn't seem able to hit MLB pitching. Pendleton was a 35 year old utility guy. Douglas was a young pitching prospect who appeared in a handful of games for the Bucs in 1957 but spent the '58 season back in AAA. He was blind in one eye.



The impact of the trade was not immediately apparent. The Reds didn't seem concerned about Thomas' hand injury but it led to a bad 1959 season for him with the Reds. And the Pirates regressed in 1959, going from 84 wins (2nd place) to 78 wins (4th place). But Haddix (3.13 ERA), Burgess (.297) and Hoak (.294) all performed well. A year later, those 3 continued to be productive, Clemente had his breakout year, Friend and Maz had bounce back seasons, and the additions of Hal Smith, Gino Cimoli and Vinegar Bend Mizell all combined to put them over the top.



The surprise of the trade for the Bucs was Hoak. While Burgess and Haddix lived up to their high expectations, Hoak exceeded his. They knew they were getting a big defensive upgrade over Thomas at 3B but Hoak's hitting was somewhat suspect. He was a career .254 hitter when obtained and most of his good hitting had been confined to 1957 when he batted an uncharacteristic .294. To give a better idea of his career stats, he was a .240 hitter absent 1957. But Hoak thrived in Pittsburgh, giving them a solid hitter as well as outstanding defense. He was the runner up to Groat in the NL MVP voting in 1960 (although arguably, Clemente probably should have been 1 or 2).

Bucs are definitely experiencing some hiccups. I too say stay the course for a month or so. Too early to throw in the towel.

But the lose of Marte and Kang have really hurt the offense big time. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out...



Well recall the trade with the Redlegs for Don the Tiger, Smokey and Harvey The Kitten. Unfortunately, trades like that don't happen anymore due to all the sabermetrics and high tech stuff. Baseball in some ways has become like algebra...



Agree the current team is not going to cut it...



Beat'em Bucs

5265736356717E797E5751100 wrote: Bucs are definitely experiencing some hiccups. I too say stay the course for a month or so. Too early to throw in the towel.

But the lose of Marte and Kang have really hurt the offense big time. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out...



Well recall the trade with the Redlegs for Don the Tiger, Smokey and Harvey The Kitten. Unfortunately, trades like that don't happen anymore due to all the sabermetrics and high tech stuff. Baseball in some ways has become like algebra...



Agree the current team is not going to cut it...



Beat'em Bucs


I bet in that Reds-Pirates deal that salaries weren't even mentioned.

794E58487D5A5552557C7A3B0 wrote:



Well recall the trade with the Redlegs for Don the Tiger, Smokey and Harvey The Kitten. Unfortunately, trades like that don't happen anymore due to all the sabermetrics and high tech stuff. Baseball in some ways has become like algebra...


Also in those days salaries were well controlled and generally not a big factor in trades. And there was no free agency so teams were not compelled to get whatever they could for a star player before he walked. It was just trading players one team needed for players the other team needed. But now the salary a team takes on as part of the trade is as big or bigger a factor as the player(s) acquired. Rarely do we now see players of similar value traded for one another.

5F4266646A0F0 wrote: There is absolutely no reason to sell at this point in the season.  It's April.  The return on McCutchen, Cole, or others isn't going to be more now than at the trade deadline.  Wait another month or two and see what you've got.  Both at the MLB level and at AAA.


How does that math work?   if a trade COULD be made now with 5 months of ball left in 2017, the return wouldn't be stronger than 2 months of 2017?   I don't understand



What is the arbitrary calendar line you guys make with respect to when returns are best? 



Do you get good returns on trades in January, but then April 14th, value all turns to dust, only to re-ignite in July?



There's just so many rules! Don't trade "prospects"! Don't trade between Opening day and July! Don't trade when on a Tuesday following a full moon, etc..   

634E43525544531310210 wrote: Somewhere here we talked about trading major pieces that might bring us some unique up and coming as well as established talent.



That though brings me back almost 58years when my Bucs led by GM Joe L. Brown totally disappointed me as a 10 yr old.  They traded away my favorite Pirate and the team's best player one Frank Thomas.  Thomas was a power hitting 3B/LF who had led the Bucs in HR and RBIs in 1958.  Along with Thomas the Bucs parted with minor RHP Whammy Douglas, Johnny Powers a LH hitting OF/PH who hit below the Mendoza Line before it was the Mendoza Line and right handed OF/3B/PH Jim Pendelton to the Cincinnati Redlegs for uh 3 guys who would help the Bucs make history.  Don "The Tiger" Hoak a righty swinging 3B who earned his nickname because of his toughness, lefty swinging catcher/PH named Forrest Harrill Burgess aka "Smoky".  A great pinch hitter who could get out of bed, come to bat and get a hit Bob Prince used to say.  Finally there was a little "Kitten" obtained in LHP Harvey Haddix.  Called the "Kitten" because of his resemblance to and his great fielding ability to a similar guy Harry "The Cat" Breechen. 



Haddix is most known for his  12 perfect inning game against the Braves on 5/26/59.  The game was decided in the 13th inning on a Joe Adcock double.  Braves win 1-0.  The Bucs were shutout despite racking up 12 hits.   The Box Score



All three guys were instrumental in the Bucs winning the WS in 1960.  In fact Haddix was the winner of game 7 after Maz's HR.



I look back to those simpler days when being a baseball fan was fun.  You rooted for your team and cheered when they won and cried and moaned when they lost but you never ever quit rooting for them and going to games.



Now adays with all the tech involved in not just baseball but all sports it has become more of a pain to watch a game on tv and even at the park.  I could go on about those two things but I wont because I love the game and the Pirates.  I hope that some of you younger guys can take a break from all the stats and just sit back and relax and watch a great game and a bunch of guys who get paid lots of money to "play" and most of who are giving it all they got to win.



For me the dream that I have would to be able to go back to my child hood and sit in the stands at Forbes Field with my dad keeping score in the official scorebook, eating popcorn and having fun with dad and the Bucs.




Darn Possum, you go off and write the post of the year.  It makes me want to go off and have a beer or a diet Coke with Mr Nutting (I'll be buying of course) and forget about finances, PNC's too-small video board and the cost of a decent bench player; just enjoy the game.  The game became so big and the world changed so much, that those simple times are gone for ever. Nothing is the same as those 1960 Pirates, except the game itself; but the game hasn't changed at all.  First order of business - enjoy the game no matter who's making a fortune off the team.  And enjoy a good, if not a great, team.



Second, I wonder if the Pirates win the 60 WS if Thomas isn't traded?  I don't know what was behind the Thomas trade, but it was obviously a huge deal to Pirate fans when it happened- how can you trade away a bat like that?  And for what?



Thank you for pointing out that sometimes you have to make big moves if you want to win big.  Time for the Pirates to make some big moves if they want to win big.  Sitting on this team is a sure sign of trying to stay competitive and hoping rather than trying to build a WS winner.


VA, here's some background on the Frank Thomas trade. Thomas was the Pirates' true star player. In 1958, he was 2nd in the NL in HRs and RBIs, finished 4th in the MVP voting and led the Bucs to their first winning season in 10 years. After being the laughingstock of MLB for the past decade, the Pirates finished 2nd in 1958 thanks largely to Thomas. And GM Joe Brown wanted to address the team's needs and take the Pirates to another level. The 1958 team did not have a LH starter. Hank Foiles was a good defensive catcher who, aside from 1957, was a very weak hitter. He batted .205 in 1958. And despite his great hitting, Thomas was weak defensively at 3B. He was 29. He also had a hand injury which he disclosed to the Reds upon being traded. But it's unclear if this had anything to do with the trade.



The Reds were the ideal trade partner for Brown. They were looking for another slugger to pair with young Frank Robinson. They also had the great hitting catcher Smoky Burgess (age 31) who was expendable because Ed Bailey was younger, better defensively and, like Burgess, a LH batter. With the Pirates in need of a LH starting pitcher, the Reds were willing to deal 32 year old veteran Haddix. And to replace Thomas at 3B, the Bucs could have journeyman Don Hoak (age 31). Hoak would greatly improve the Pirates' infiield defense at 3B but was an inconsistent hitter who had enjoyed only 1 standout season with the bat (1957).



So the Bucs obtained 3 veterans, all 30+, to fill the team's needs and to try to build on their successful 1958 season. The rest of the trade involved throw-ins. Powers was a minor league slugger who didn't seem able to hit MLB pitching. Pendleton was a 35 year old utility guy. Douglas was a young pitching prospect who appeared in a handful of games for the Bucs in 1957 but spent the '58 season back in AAA. He was blind in one eye.



The impact of the trade was not immediately apparent. The Reds didn't seem concerned about Thomas' hand injury but it led to a bad 1959 season for him with the Reds. And the Pirates regressed in 1959, going from 84 wins (2nd place) to 78 wins (4th place). But Haddix (3.13 ERA), Burgess (.297) and Hoak (.294) all performed well. A year later, those 3 continued to be productive, Clemente had his breakout year, Friend and Maz had bounce back seasons, and the additions of Hal Smith, Gino Cimoli and Vinegar Bend Mizell all combined to put them over the top.



The surprise of the trade for the Bucs was Hoak. While Burgess and Haddix lived up to their high expectations, Hoak exceeded his. They knew they were getting a big defensive upgrade over Thomas at 3B but Hoak's hitting was somewhat suspect. He was a career .254 hitter when obtained and most of his good hitting had been confined to 1957 when he batted an uncharacteristic .294. To give a better idea of his career stats, he was a .240 hitter absent 1957. But Hoak thrived in Pittsburgh, giving them a solid hitter as well as outstanding defense. He was the runner up to Groat in the NL MVP voting in 1960 (although arguably, Clemente probably should have been 1 or 2).


Thanks so much Bobster for going into detail about the Frank Thomas trade. Means a lot more to me now with the details than it did when I was 10 yrs old.



And thanks to VaPirate for suggesting I post the original post after sharing the story with him by PM.

515850414F350 wrote: There is absolutely no reason to sell at this point in the season.  It's April.  The return on McCutchen, Cole, or others isn't going to be more now than at the trade deadline.  Wait another month or two and see what you've got.  Both at the MLB level and at AAA.


How does that math work?   if a trade COULD be made now with 5 months of ball left in 2017, the return wouldn't be stronger than 2 months of 2017?   I don't understand



What is the arbitrary calendar line you guys make with respect to when returns are best? 



Do you get good returns on trades in January, but then April 14th, value all turns to dust, only to re-ignite in July?   



There's just so many rules!   Don't trade "prospects"! Don't trade between Opening day and July!  Don't trade when on a Tuesday  following a full moon, etc..   


I can try to answer this:



Come July, teams know if you are in it or not and if they should buy or sell for the stretch run. In April, all teams probably think they are in it as the team was just put together.



Teams seem to overpay to make that run and offer more at the deadline in July. Teams also know who is on the market and battle each other for players making their market go up.



Salary comes into play too. Why pay McCutchen $13 million when you can get him in July for $7 million and be in the same situation?



You rarely see teams make big trades in April. There has to be a reason why, right? This isn't a new sport or business.

7378707C7978632620576E767F7878397478170 wrote: There is absolutely no reason to sell at this point in the season.  It's April.  The return on McCutchen, Cole, or others isn't going to be more now than at the trade deadline.  Wait another month or two and see what you've got.  Both at the MLB level and at AAA.


How does that math work?   if a trade COULD be made now with 5 months of ball left in 2017, the return wouldn't be stronger than 2 months of 2017?   I don't understand



What is the arbitrary calendar line you guys make with respect to when returns are best? 



Do you get good returns on trades in January, but then April 14th, value all turns to dust, only to re-ignite in July?   



There's just so many rules!   Don't trade "prospects"! Don't trade between Opening day and July!  Don't trade when on a Tuesday  following a full moon, etc..   


I can try to answer this:



Come July, teams know if you are in it or not and if they should buy or sell for the stretch run.  In April, all teams probably think they are in it as the team was just put together.



Teams seem to overpay to make that run and offer more at the deadline in July.  Teams also know who is on the market and battle each other for players making their market go up.



Salary comes into play too.  Why pay McCutchen $13 million when you can get him in July for $7 million and be in the same situation?



You rarely see teams make big trades in April.  There has to be a reason why, right?  This isn't a new sport or business.   


I agree with Dog on this. By April, teams have had all off season to build the roster they're satisfied with. And that's a combination of player talent and payroll limits. There's probably more optimism than common sense in April as many more teams think they're going to contend than actually do. Many players get off to slow starts and their teams still hope those players will rebound before feeling like they have to make a trade to fill that hole. So the July non-waiver trade deadline is sort of the rallying point for teams to make deals that they hoped in April would not be necessary. At that point, a GM trying to improve his team for the stretch run is more willing to deal even if he has to give up more than he would like. It also depends on the contract. If you can get a free-agent-to-be at the August 31 waiver-deal deadline, you are only renting him for a month. Those players don't bring as much in return.