OnlyBucs

5344494D4D49434B13200 wrote: get the Pittsburgh Kid, Ian Happ! 
I thought the same thing but really doubt they would be willing to part with him. I would love that move!

Happ and Baez both can't play along with Russell. I wonder what the Cubs will do? Are they trying to move Schwarber for Zobrist?



They do have a few odd men out, but who are they?

28232B272223387D7B0C352D242323622F234C0 wrote: Happ and Baez both can't play along with Russell.  I wonder what the Cubs will do?  Are they trying to move Schwarber for Zobrist? 



They do have a few odd men out, but who are they? 
Happ played all 3 OF positions last season.

424B43525C260 wrote: I think Harrison would be extremely valuable to the Yankees. With the 2 young guys in the infield Harrison could spell them at any time and/or start until they are acclimated. He can also move to the OF. The best thing he is very good on defense no matter where you put him.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this.  I don't.  Again, curious as to what is his value.  I think if you are trading both, you send them in separate deals.


Yep. As I said earlier I would do the Cole for Frazier, Andujar and Adams trade right now. I have no idea what would be offered for JHay alone.
I was hoping for a Cole for Frazier, Adams, and Andujar. The Yanks might be hesitant to do that. I would hate to see JHay go. He is the heart and soul of the team. The clubhouse would suffer in my opinion. Instead I would try to make this a mega deal. Would the Yanks consider Cole, Rivero, and Freese for Frazier, Adams, Andujar, and Torres?


Why would the Yankees want Rivero?  They have Chapman.  Why would they want David Freese?  Truly a part-time guy who has a glove but not enought power or stamina to play 162 games. 



I've been on OBN since almost the beginning and I am afraid that you like me often over estimate the worth of the guys we think the Bucs should trade.  I sure hope that NH is looking elsewhere for deals for Cole, Harrison, Cutch and perhaps Rivero.  Make the Yankees squirm if that is possible.



I can't fault you for being a dreamer.  Who knows that dream might come true!




My thinking is Freese could bridge the gap until Machado is available. Rivero and Chapman gives the Yanks the most dominating bullpen in baseball. Also provides insurance either way in case of injury. Bucs keep JHay and his versatility. My dream aspect is that the Bucs sign Cutch for 4-5 years. They are getting 50 million extra this year. That 50M plus the savings from Cole and Freese would allow the Bucs to offer Cutch 4-5 years at 20M a year.

In summary the Bucs retool with Frazier, Adams, Andujar, Torres and would still be able to compete with most of the roster intact.




WHY?  WHY?  WHY?



Do you really think he's not on the downward slope of his career, with maybe one bounceback year left in him before he becomes a middle-of-the-road player?  Cutch is the archetype of the player we should NOT be paying $20 mil to for years at a time.  Why pay him 20% of the team's salary for 4-5 years?  If we're gonna spend ownership's money (and I'm all for that), let's not buy an albatross.






Well, we are not going to sign anyone with the 50 million so better Cutch gets it than an imaginary player.



Better yet, trade him and sign other good players with a future.    (Haha, I know funny right?)






I'd LIKE to argue with you about this, but I can't.  I keep hoping that eventually, after all these years, they will have knocked down their debts enough that ownership would be comfortable in reinvesting, but when we didn't get any heavy investments in the 2014 - 2016 teams, that showed they're never going to knock enough off that they feel comfortable in doing that. 



Still, if we're gonna do thought experiments and, "what would WE do", I think we could do better than propose spending $80-$100 Mil on Cutch at this point in his career.  We already have actual ownership making poor/no moves.  No need to do that in the hypothetical as well.



We've had these conversations on the board before, where we notice great or very good players who get paid large contracts just when they aren't really earning them any more.  Contracts like these are paying them for previous performance, not so much for the performance they'll be putting up during the big contract.  Nice for the player, but not the best value for the team.



And damn, I can NOT understand why Cutch dropped off.  Several years back, I'd have bet money on him putting up his all-star numbers into his mid 30's.  He seems to stay healthy and is in great shape, but it just doesn't seem to me like that's gonna happen.  If someone wants to wish for the sentimental retention of a hometown favorite, I get that.  As long as we recognize it for what it is, no harm in that, but it's not a smart baseball move.  Well, wait, if we spot the Bucs a $200mil payroll, I guess it could work OK.  Maybe we should start posting our theoretical payroll as well.  Puts things in perspective.



Polonco is what he is now, and nothing more.  Marte could improve in theory, but he won't suddenly develop a better understand the game he's dedicated himself to these past 20-odd years. The outfield never really turned into the incredible powerhouse I dreamed it would be.  I admit, I had very high hopes indeed.   Meadows is likely to be yet another high-potential underperformer, though he at least has a chance yet to prove me wrong. 



Lastly, I'd like to leave a quick apology to JollyRoger.  I think that signing Cutch to the contract you propose would be an incredibly bad baseball decision (given the total payroll they'd likely be willing to commit to), but I didn't need to be a jerk about it.




Your 200million payroll is a strawman the size of Texas.   You don't need a 200 million dollar payroll to pay Cutch 20 per year (the number you used).   You need around 108 million dollar payroll in 2018, all else being equal.



Don't fall into the trap of painting people disagreeing with you as "payroll doesn't matter" people.    Math is a stubborn thing.



108 million.  How dare these people be so unrealistic!  What are we going to do next? Sign Stanton?  If we aren't careful, we will end up over the luxury tax threshold...



I agree with everything else you said as well as resigning Cutch not being a good baseball move.   He's the kind of player we should be trading.   Hypothetical payrolls are probably good to establish for the sake of discussion.   Mine is 120 million for 2018.   



It's a very realistic number keeping us in the bottom 3rd of baseball.   Particularly considering we are getting a 50 million lump sum revenue payment first quarter of 2018.   


120 million is a fair budget. The way I get there is to hold on to what we've got and buy a third baseman. I maintain that Mike Moustakas can be had for 3 years- 50M and his 2018 salary should be low enough to keep us under 120M.



If Huntington won't go there,than, as we all suspect, he is the PROBLEM.

4D676C5C6B7D7D711E0 wrote: I think Harrison would be extremely valuable to the Yankees. With the 2 young guys in the infield Harrison could spell them at any time and/or start until they are acclimated. He can also move to the OF. The best thing he is very good on defense no matter where you put him.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this.  I don't.  Again, curious as to what is his value.  I think if you are trading both, you send them in separate deals.


Yep. As I said earlier I would do the Cole for Frazier, Andujar and Adams trade right now. I have no idea what would be offered for JHay alone.
I was hoping for a Cole for Frazier, Adams, and Andujar. The Yanks might be hesitant to do that. I would hate to see JHay go. He is the heart and soul of the team. The clubhouse would suffer in my opinion. Instead I would try to make this a mega deal. Would the Yanks consider Cole, Rivero, and Freese for Frazier, Adams, Andujar, and Torres?


Why would the Yankees want Rivero?  They have Chapman.  Why would they want David Freese?  Truly a part-time guy who has a glove but not enought power or stamina to play 162 games. 



I've been on OBN since almost the beginning and I am afraid that you like me often over estimate the worth of the guys we think the Bucs should trade.  I sure hope that NH is looking elsewhere for deals for Cole, Harrison, Cutch and perhaps Rivero.  Make the Yankees squirm if that is possible.



I can't fault you for being a dreamer.  Who knows that dream might come true!




My thinking is Freese could bridge the gap until Machado is available. Rivero and Chapman gives the Yanks the most dominating bullpen in baseball. Also provides insurance either way in case of injury. Bucs keep JHay and his versatility. My dream aspect is that the Bucs sign Cutch for 4-5 years. They are getting 50 million extra this year. That 50M plus the savings from Cole and Freese would allow the Bucs to offer Cutch 4-5 years at 20M a year.

In summary the Bucs retool with Frazier, Adams, Andujar, Torres and would still be able to compete with most of the roster intact.




WHY?  WHY?  WHY?



Do you really think he's not on the downward slope of his career, with maybe one bounceback year left in him before he becomes a middle-of-the-road player?  Cutch is the archetype of the player we should NOT be paying $20 mil to for years at a time.  Why pay him 20% of the team's salary for 4-5 years?  If we're gonna spend ownership's money (and I'm all for that), let's not buy an albatross.






Well, we are not going to sign anyone with the 50 million so better Cutch gets it than an imaginary player.



Better yet, trade him and sign other good players with a future.    (Haha, I know funny right?)






I'd LIKE to argue with you about this, but I can't.  I keep hoping that eventually, after all these years, they will have knocked down their debts enough that ownership would be comfortable in reinvesting, but when we didn't get any heavy investments in the 2014 - 2016 teams, that showed they're never going to knock enough off that they feel comfortable in doing that. 



Still, if we're gonna do thought experiments and, "what would WE do", I think we could do better than propose spending $80-$100 Mil on Cutch at this point in his career.  We already have actual ownership making poor/no moves.  No need to do that in the hypothetical as well.



We've had these conversations on the board before, where we notice great or very good players who get paid large contracts just when they aren't really earning them any more.  Contracts like these are paying them for previous performance, not so much for the performance they'll be putting up during the big contract.  Nice for the player, but not the best value for the team.



And damn, I can NOT understand why Cutch dropped off.  Several years back, I'd have bet money on him putting up his all-star numbers into his mid 30's.  He seems to stay healthy and is in great shape, but it just doesn't seem to me like that's gonna happen.  If someone wants to wish for the sentimental retention of a hometown favorite, I get that.  As long as we recognize it for what it is, no harm in that, but it's not a smart baseball move.  Well, wait, if we spot the Bucs a $200mil payroll, I guess it could work OK.  Maybe we should start posting our theoretical payroll as well.  Puts things in perspective.



Polonco is what he is now, and nothing more.  Marte could improve in theory, but he won't suddenly develop a better understand the game he's dedicated himself to these past 20-odd years. The outfield never really turned into the incredible powerhouse I dreamed it would be.  I admit, I had very high hopes indeed.   Meadows is likely to be yet another high-potential underperformer, though he at least has a chance yet to prove me wrong. 



Lastly, I'd like to leave a quick apology to JollyRoger.  I think that signing Cutch to the contract you propose would be an incredibly bad baseball decision (given the total payroll they'd likely be willing to commit to), but I didn't need to be a jerk about it.




Your 200million payroll is a strawman the size of Texas.   You don't need a 200 million dollar payroll to pay Cutch 20 per year (the number you used).   You need around 108 million dollar payroll in 2018, all else being equal.



Don't fall into the trap of painting people disagreeing with you as "payroll doesn't matter" people.    Math is a stubborn thing.



108 million.  How dare these people be so unrealistic!  What are we going to do next? Sign Stanton?  If we aren't careful, we will end up over the luxury tax threshold...



I agree with everything else you said as well as resigning Cutch not being a good baseball move.   He's the kind of player we should be trading.   Hypothetical payrolls are probably good to establish for the sake of discussion.   Mine is 120 million for 2018.   



It's a very realistic number keeping us in the bottom 3rd of baseball.   Particularly considering we are getting a 50 million lump sum revenue payment first quarter of 2018.   


120 million is a fair budget. The way I get there is to hold on to what we've got and buy a third baseman. I maintain that Mike Moustakas can be had for 3 years- 50M and his 2018 salary should be low enough to keep us under 120M.



If Huntington won't go there,than, as we all suspect, he is the PROBLEM.


They aren't going there. I read that the opening payroll is likely to be reduced under 100M.

I agree about Moustakas too. He would be perfect for the Pirates in my opinion. He is a big lefty, fills a void at third base, and isn't over priced. I read where he is projected to get around $12-$14 million a year too.



Even if you think he won't repeat his 2017 season, he can certainly put up his 2015 season again. I can't find his 2017 spray chart, but I would think PNC Park would help him.

5F545C5055544F0A0C7B425A5354541558543B0 wrote: get the Pittsburgh Kid, Ian Happ! 


They are probably trying to trade Ben Zobrist because of Ian Happ.  Zobrist has a bad contract, but did help the Cubs win it all.


If they want Cole, they have to pay right? Who is more valuable in your eyes? Gleyber Torres or Ian Happ? Would you go Cole straight up for either one? Considering the Yanks wont move Torres, I really don't think Happ is as valuable as Torres. Im comparing two different types of players, but Happ is still young and near the prospect status as Torres. Torres would have been up last year if it wasn't for his surgery.



The Cubs have depth and I don't see it hurting them to trade Cole for Happ. It could be a pipe dream, but it's a fun one.

I like Moustakas a lot. He should have taken the qualified offer.



Personally, I think I'd give up the Pirates comp draft pick.



This seems like a Neal Deal: a player with an expected value out of the Pirates range, who is falling into Neal's lap.



If the Pirates traded cutch and added MM at least we'd feel like the Pirates reinvested Cutch's money. In the end, I think we all expect Cutch's $$ to simply disappear.

4D5A575353575D550D3E0 wrote: get the Pittsburgh Kid, Ian Happ! 


They are probably trying to trade Ben Zobrist because of Ian Happ.  Zobrist has a bad contract, but did help the Cubs win it all.


If they want Cole, they have to pay right?  Who is more valuable in your eyes?  Gleyber Torres or Ian Happ?  Would you go Cole straight up for either one?  Considering the Yanks wont move Torres, I really don't think Happ is as valuable as Torres.  Im comparing two different types of players, but Happ is still young and near the prospect status as Torres.  Torres would have been up last year if it wasn't for his surgery. 



The Cubs have depth and I don't see it hurting them to trade Cole for Happ. It could be a pipe dream, but it's a fun one.


Yes I would trade Cole straight up for either. Happ just posted a .253/.328/.514 line with 24 HR's in only 364 AB's. He also has versatility in the field he played all 3 OF positins plus 2nd and 3rd. I would take him anyday of the week and probably over Torres.

Could the Brewers be a potential trading partner for Cole? They have some interesting pieces that could be made available.