7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
When the Nutting/FC/NH regime took over, the immediate goal was to turn a terrible organization into a competitive one. This was accomplished by working to improve the overall talent level throughout the organization. The next goal is to win a championship. This has to be accomplished through the decisions made at the major league level. So far, they have not been as adept at that as they were in improving the overall talent. The personnel moves regarding pitching prior to the start of the season were disappointing to say the least. Especially for a team that now had the talent to win 98 games last year. And as the season has progressed and those pitching moves have predictably failed, the FO now inexplicably continues to use weak pitchers instead of committing to the home grown talent in AAA that could not possibly be worse and has a much higher ceiling. This FO deservedly received a great deal of praise for the first part of the operation-improving the talent. But they have not demonstrated an ability to make the moves necessary-or even logical-to go from being a good team to being a championship team.
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
735E53424554430300310 wrote: When the Nutting/FC/NH regime took over, the immediate goal was to turn a terrible organization into a competitive one. This was accomplished by working to improve the overall talent level throughout the organization. The next goal is to win a championship. This has to be accomplished through the decisions made at the major league level. So far, they have not been as adept at that as they were in improving the overall talent. The personnel moves regarding pitching prior to the start of the season were disappointing to say the least. Especially for a team that now had the talent to win 98 games last year. And as the season has progressed and those pitching moves have predictably failed, the FO now inexplicably continues to use weak pitchers instead of committing to the home grown talent in AAA that could not possibly be worse and has a much higher ceiling. This FO deservedly received a great deal of praise for the first part of the operation-improving the talent. But they have not demonstrated an ability to make the moves necessary-or even logical-to go from being a good team to being a championship team.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
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Bobster21
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
524F6B6967020 wrote: When the Nutting/FC/NH regime took over, the immediate goal was to turn a terrible organization into a competitive one. This was accomplished by working to improve the overall talent level throughout the organization. The next goal is to win a championship. This has to be accomplished through the decisions made at the major league level. So far, they have not been as adept at that as they were in improving the overall talent. The personnel moves regarding pitching prior to the start of the season were disappointing to say the least. Especially for a team that now had the talent to win 98 games last year. And as the season has progressed and those pitching moves have predictably failed, the FO now inexplicably continues to use weak pitchers instead of committing to the home grown talent in AAA that could not possibly be worse and has a much higher ceiling. This FO deservedly received a great deal of praise for the first part of the operation-improving the talent. But they have not demonstrated an ability to make the moves necessary-or even logical-to go from being a good team to being a championship team.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
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SteadyFreddy
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
I don't suggest DFA'ing Locke either. I think they should at least attempt to trade him first. But if you're not able to trade him then do something with him now instead of continuing to pitch him every 5th day when you have 3 better options currently in AAA. Give him a phantom DL stint for a few weeks, move him to the bullpen in long relief who cares at this point. Yesterday during the game the Pirates showed Vogelsong in AAA as well saying he is close to being ready. What in the world are they planning on doing with him?? There is no room for him right now on this roster to begin with, and there is no way that I am pitching him over guys like Glasnow,Kuhl, Taillon, Brault etc.
The bottom line here is Huntington and Hurdle need to make some harsh decisions here soon with guys like Locke and Vogelsong as far as either DFA them or trading them. They just cant sit back like they are now and continue to twiddle their thumbs while better pitchers who can help you win games and potentially make the playoffs again pitch in AAA. That was fine early on in the season in April and May when guys like Taillon and Glasnow were still on the Super 2 thing and continuing to get better and work their way up here. It's not going to work anymore going into the end of July and early August.
The bottom line here is Huntington and Hurdle need to make some harsh decisions here soon with guys like Locke and Vogelsong as far as either DFA them or trading them. They just cant sit back like they are now and continue to twiddle their thumbs while better pitchers who can help you win games and potentially make the playoffs again pitch in AAA. That was fine early on in the season in April and May when guys like Taillon and Glasnow were still on the Super 2 thing and continuing to get better and work their way up here. It's not going to work anymore going into the end of July and early August.
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
616A626E6B6A713432457C646D6A6A2B666A050 wrote: Jaso is quietly starting to look more and more useless as the games go on. Time to move him and call Bell up to play 1st.
I was surprised to see his average is under .270. With no power, able to steal I don't think he is the answer. I'd rather use Freese at 1B.
Not sure who would want Jaso, but he would be picked up in a heartbeat. Not sure what to do. He can be useful off the bench, but if Bell is up someone needs to go down.
All things considered Jaso isn't really such a good bench option. He is limited to playing only one position, 1B, and he doesn't provide exceptional defense there or any power. His career OPS against left-hand pitching is .522 so he's really only effective against right-handers. The one thing he does well is to make a pitcher work deep into counts and to get on base (although his .340 OB percentage this year places him 7th among the 11 Pirate's who have more than 150 plate appearances). Lastly, as a bench guy with less than average foot speed when he does reach base you may be forced to pinch run for him and thus have to burn another player.
IMO Jaso should be traded ASAP and Bell promoted to share time with Freese at 1B.
I was surprised to see his average is under .270. With no power, able to steal I don't think he is the answer. I'd rather use Freese at 1B.
Not sure who would want Jaso, but he would be picked up in a heartbeat. Not sure what to do. He can be useful off the bench, but if Bell is up someone needs to go down.
All things considered Jaso isn't really such a good bench option. He is limited to playing only one position, 1B, and he doesn't provide exceptional defense there or any power. His career OPS against left-hand pitching is .522 so he's really only effective against right-handers. The one thing he does well is to make a pitcher work deep into counts and to get on base (although his .340 OB percentage this year places him 7th among the 11 Pirate's who have more than 150 plate appearances). Lastly, as a bench guy with less than average foot speed when he does reach base you may be forced to pinch run for him and thus have to burn another player.
IMO Jaso should be traded ASAP and Bell promoted to share time with Freese at 1B.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: When the Nutting/FC/NH regime took over, the immediate goal was to turn a terrible organization into a competitive one. This was accomplished by working to improve the overall talent level throughout the organization. The next goal is to win a championship. This has to be accomplished through the decisions made at the major league level. So far, they have not been as adept at that as they were in improving the overall talent. The personnel moves regarding pitching prior to the start of the season were disappointing to say the least. Especially for a team that now had the talent to win 98 games last year. And as the season has progressed and those pitching moves have predictably failed, the FO now inexplicably continues to use weak pitchers instead of committing to the home grown talent in AAA that could not possibly be worse and has a much higher ceiling. This FO deservedly received a great deal of praise for the first part of the operation-improving the talent. But they have not demonstrated an ability to make the moves necessary-or even logical-to go from being a good team to being a championship team.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
Yeah, I think a lot of issues radiate from one missed move this offseason, of a middle rotation starter. I'm sure the insiders knew they didn't want Jeff freaking Locke as a #4 starter but were okay with them as a 5 for a while. Niese obviously has been disappointing, but his past performance would have been fine for a four and you'd have been able to cushion yourself from his failure a bit more. Nicasio would have been a very interesting SP project/6th starter instead of someone you were absolutely depending on in the rotation.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
Yeah, I think a lot of issues radiate from one missed move this offseason, of a middle rotation starter. I'm sure the insiders knew they didn't want Jeff freaking Locke as a #4 starter but were okay with them as a 5 for a while. Niese obviously has been disappointing, but his past performance would have been fine for a four and you'd have been able to cushion yourself from his failure a bit more. Nicasio would have been a very interesting SP project/6th starter instead of someone you were absolutely depending on in the rotation.
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SteadyFreddy
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
6F5D51514577545D50555A5D3C0 wrote: When the Nutting/FC/NH regime took over, the immediate goal was to turn a terrible organization into a competitive one. This was accomplished by working to improve the overall talent level throughout the organization. The next goal is to win a championship. This has to be accomplished through the decisions made at the major league level. So far, they have not been as adept at that as they were in improving the overall talent. The personnel moves regarding pitching prior to the start of the season were disappointing to say the least. Especially for a team that now had the talent to win 98 games last year. And as the season has progressed and those pitching moves have predictably failed, the FO now inexplicably continues to use weak pitchers instead of committing to the home grown talent in AAA that could not possibly be worse and has a much higher ceiling. This FO deservedly received a great deal of praise for the first part of the operation-improving the talent. But they have not demonstrated an ability to make the moves necessary-or even logical-to go from being a good team to being a championship team.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
Yeah, I think a lot of issues radiate from one missed move this offseason, of a middle rotation starter. I'm sure the insiders knew they didn't want Jeff freaking Locke as a #4 starter but were okay with them as a 5 for a while. Niese obviously has been disappointing, but his past performance would have been fine for a four and you'd have been able to cushion yourself from his failure a bit more. Nicasio would have been a very interesting SP project/6th starter instead of someone you were absolutely depending on in the rotation. All of these moves were still based on way too many "what ifs" for my liking. You can only go to the well so many times before things aren't going to work out.
It's especially frustrating when you hear Huntington come out the other day on his radio show and basically rip Niese by saying that in hindsight they would have been better off trading Walker for prospects instead of trading for Niese. When they traded for Niese they were hoping he would be a number 3 starter and based on Niese career numbers you knew that just wasn't going to be possible.
It's not that simple, though. I agree with your general premise that the younger guys are more talented, but part of being the GM/FO is managing all os the assets that have value. As much as everyone around here badmouths Locke, Niese, and others, those guys all have some value. A team like the Pirates can't just go around DFA guys for unproven (but likely better) rookies. As much as it is frustrating, they have to bide their time to see what they can get out of them, whether it's trade value or performance.
I actually think they have done a pretty good job of managing the innings for the younger players. They have been creative about bringing guys up and sending them back down. They were creative with sending Taillon to the DL to save some innings on his arm and keep him with the team. They have sent Nicasio and Niese to the bullpen.
No one said DFA them. They don't have much trade value, but there's always some market for LHPs. Worse guys get traded. And it's not as if they just began to struggle. The FO has had a half season to figure something out. A trade for a middling A player should be possible. And beyond that issue, the pitching moves before the season even began were highly questionable. Last year we were hoping we'd seen the last of Locke. Instead he was elevated from 5 to 4 and Vogelsong and Niese were added. Not the moves that would improve a good team into a championship team.
Yeah, I think a lot of issues radiate from one missed move this offseason, of a middle rotation starter. I'm sure the insiders knew they didn't want Jeff freaking Locke as a #4 starter but were okay with them as a 5 for a while. Niese obviously has been disappointing, but his past performance would have been fine for a four and you'd have been able to cushion yourself from his failure a bit more. Nicasio would have been a very interesting SP project/6th starter instead of someone you were absolutely depending on in the rotation. All of these moves were still based on way too many "what ifs" for my liking. You can only go to the well so many times before things aren't going to work out.
It's especially frustrating when you hear Huntington come out the other day on his radio show and basically rip Niese by saying that in hindsight they would have been better off trading Walker for prospects instead of trading for Niese. When they traded for Niese they were hoping he would be a number 3 starter and based on Niese career numbers you knew that just wasn't going to be possible.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
I liked the fact that Huntington said he made a mistake in the Walker trade. I am surprised someone is against him admitting to that?
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
07203135302D12263130302D540 wrote: based on Niese career numbers you knew that just wasn't going to be possible.
Why was that not going to be possible?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... jo01.shtml
I'd have preferred him to be a #3 as I've said already, but saying it was not "possible" at least for that is monday morning quarterbacking. The problem is that it wasn't a part of a series of moves strengthening the rotation. And as Dogknot said, what's wrong with admitting a mistake?
Why was that not going to be possible?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... jo01.shtml
I'd have preferred him to be a #3 as I've said already, but saying it was not "possible" at least for that is monday morning quarterbacking. The problem is that it wasn't a part of a series of moves strengthening the rotation. And as Dogknot said, what's wrong with admitting a mistake?
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SteadyFreddy
7/20 Game Thread Locke versus Brewers...
0B3935352113303934313E39580 wrote: based on Niese career numbers you knew that just wasn't going to be possible.
Why was that not going to be possible?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... jo01.shtml
I'd have preferred him to be a #3 as I've said already, but saying it was not "possible" at least for that is monday morning quarterbacking. And as Dogknot said, what's wrong with admitting a mistake?
Being only 2 games over .500 in your career with an ERA right at 4 is not number 3 starter type numbers. You gotta be able to do better then that in my opinion on a team that was suppose to contend for a division title and possibly a World Series. Maybe saying it wasn't possible is a little bit of a stretch but the Pirates had to know going in that a ton of things had to go right for Niese to pitch like a number 3 starter which he came nowhere close to doing.
Why was that not going to be possible?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... jo01.shtml
I'd have preferred him to be a #3 as I've said already, but saying it was not "possible" at least for that is monday morning quarterbacking. And as Dogknot said, what's wrong with admitting a mistake?
Being only 2 games over .500 in your career with an ERA right at 4 is not number 3 starter type numbers. You gotta be able to do better then that in my opinion on a team that was suppose to contend for a division title and possibly a World Series. Maybe saying it wasn't possible is a little bit of a stretch but the Pirates had to know going in that a ton of things had to go right for Niese to pitch like a number 3 starter which he came nowhere close to doing.