OnlyBucs

7C515C4D4A5B4C0C0F3E0 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I think we've seen this play out already. If everything aligns perfectly(young cheap players performing well). This FO will try and dumpster dive for retreads that will come cheap enough. Once they get close but the team has needs to get too real contender status they won't be comfortable making a big acquisition. We are stuck in a continuous cycle. I just read an article about Nutting hoping to someday have leave the team to his kids. :'(

032E23323524337370410 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I have come to believe this is the case. If I was younger and knew this I would root for a different team.



I don't know how Nutting, Coonley and Huntington can talk at all about winning with a straight face. They are conmen but they can operate within the law.



My feeling is if NH and Coonley had more integrity they would leap at chance to go to another organization that had goal of winning championships.

75746F7E68282F1B0 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I think we've seen this play out already. If everything aligns perfectly(young cheap players performing well). This FO will try and dumpster dive for retreads that will come cheap enough. Once they get close but the team has needs to get too real contender status they won't be comfortable making a big acquisition. We are stuck in a continuous cycle. I just read an article about Nutting hoping to someday have leave the team to his kids. :'(


I heard the same thing about Nutting, with an awesome quote: he wants to be to the Pirates what the Rooney's are to the Steelers! ;D

517776617767140 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I have come to believe this is the case.  If I was younger and knew this I would root for a different team.



I don't know how Nutting, Coonley and Huntington can talk at all about winning with a straight face.  They are conmen but they can operate within the law.



My feeling is if NH and Coonley had more integrity they would leap at chance to go to another organization that had goal of winning championships. 
At this point I don't think Huntington will get another GM job anywhere.

5F5E4554420205310 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I have come to believe this is the case.  If I was younger and knew this I would root for a different team.



I don't know how Nutting, Coonley and Huntington can talk at all about winning with a straight face.  They are conmen but they can operate within the law.



My feeling is if NH and Coonley had more integrity they would leap at chance to go to another organization that had goal of winning championships. 
At this point I don't think Huntington will get another GM job anywhere.




Funny thought highlighted. But I also think that Nutting will not get a GM of any consequence anywhere either. He would have to over pay I believe to get a decent GM and also have a plan for going forward. Looks like Nuttings MO is having nor expecting either.

38392233256562560 wrote: What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.



   
I have come to believe this is the case.  If I was younger and knew this I would root for a different team.



I don't know how Nutting, Coonley and Huntington can talk at all about winning with a straight face.  They are conmen but they can operate within the law.



My feeling is if NH and Coonley had more integrity they would leap at chance to go to another organization that had goal of winning championships. 
At this point I don't think Huntington will get another GM job anywhere.




I don't think he will either. Probably after the 2016 season he would have been in high demand if available.

If they get Adams, Frazier, and Andujar back from the Cole trade, do you all think these guys are close enough that extending or re-signing Cutch in his declining years is a good baseball move? I think the Pirates think they are a few pieces away from contention and if these guys pan out from the alleged trade, then maybe they aren't that far away? Add in Keller to the rotation and maybe Glasnow finds the zone. It's an never ending story, but they have to move pieces like Cole to keep up and replenish the farm.



I'm in the middle of the road right now because the Pirates are too. Depending what their next move is, will make my opinion change on what I hope they do next.

35222F2B2B2F252D75460 wrote: If they get Adams, Frazier, and Andujar back from the Cole trade, do you all think these guys are close enough that extending or re-signing Cutch in his declining years is a good baseball move?  I think the Pirates think they are a few pieces away from contention and if these guys pan out from the alleged trade, then maybe they aren't that far away?  Add in Keller to the rotation and maybe Glasnow finds the zone.  It's an never ending story, but they have to move pieces like Cole to keep up and replenish the farm. 



I'm in the middle of the road right now because the Pirates are too.  Depending what their next move is, will make my opinion change on what I hope they do next.
I would give Cutch an offer of 4/70. I doubt he takes it but that's what I would do. He is still projected to have an .820 OPS next season. Is that MVP Cutch no, but that's still a good player. I would take an offer of Frazier, Andujar and Adams for Cole only. I would not include Harrison in that deal. I do think these guys are close. I would look to deal Polanco with the hope that someone sees the potential for a big breakout(I do not) and gives up something of value.

2D3A373333373D356D5E0 wrote: If they get Adams, Frazier, and Andujar back from the Cole trade, do you all think these guys are close enough that extending or re-signing Cutch in his declining years is a good baseball move?  I think the Pirates think they are a few pieces away from contention and if these guys pan out from the alleged trade, then maybe they aren't that far away?  Add in Keller to the rotation and maybe Glasnow finds the zone.  It's an never ending story, but they have to move pieces like Cole to keep up and replenish the farm. 



I'm in the middle of the road right now because the Pirates are too.  Depending what their next move is, will make my opinion change on what I hope they do next.


I think if they trade Cole for the said return, the Pirates can still buy as well. I also think they have some young talent ready to make impacts too.



I would extend McCutchen knowing he won't be the MVP candidate in the future. That doesn't mean he can't be productive and not be a piece to a championship team. I think McCutchen can put up Ryan Braun numbers going forward.



Someone would have to step up if McCutchen is traded. He would be a huge loss to the current line up. I don't feel Harrison or Cole being traded would have the same impact on a talent level.

The Pirates will really miss McCutchen if he is traded. That said, it is past time to trade him.



McCutchen was on fire for most of June and July last year, and he performed at a good level in September. However, in August his bat was abysmal, and he performed little above replacement level in April and May. He similarly had down months in 2016 before catching fire. I know that all players have ups and downs, but I would be very concerned about McCutchen regressing further. I note that when things weren't clicking for him in the early going last year I suggested that if he didn't soon find some of the 'old glory' that he would be hard pressed to obtain a good free agent offer in 2019 and that he could find himself out of baseball at 32.



I deeply respect what McCutchen has done for the Pittsburgh franchise. I also want him to continue to be successful, regardless if it is in Pittsburgh or elsewhere. But, the days of sentimentality in baseball are largely over, unless you are a franchise who can look at $20 mil on the books for 4 or more years as being pocket change.



As SyrBucco said several weeks ago, I want the Bucs to have nice things. McCutchen was a very special player. He still remains a very good player. That said, I want the Bucs to take the risk of finding future McCutchen's this off-season (as doubtful as that is) or at least some good players who can be here for a while. I want the team to try and retool.



With respect to Harrison. I too love his heart and enthusiasm for the game. He has had one magical season and another 1.5 good seasons. He is, however, a limited talent, but one who could be attractive to a contending team because of his versatility. If the Bucs can move him for a decent return, then by all means they should move him.