OnlyBucs

6440545C59350 wrote: The Brewers just beat the Pirates at the game of baseball. It isn't  that the Brewers made a great move that matters to me as a Pirate fan, but that the Pirates did absolutely nothing when they could have. That's most certainly bash worthy.


Maybe this year. The Brewers have done nothing since making the playoffs in 2011. Were people saying "look at the Pirates" during that time as they were being bashed?



Their Owner has made the Playoffs twice in 13 years. But now he is a better owner than the Pirates, who has made the playoffs three times in 11 years? I am not supporting Bob Nutting, but that just isn't a fair assessment.



I actually don't mind the Brewers. I like their fan base and glad they got rid of Fielder and Gomez. I hated Gomez, least favorite player. I am not a Braun fan, but he has been out of the spotlight the last few years. I still boo Braun every at bat.

6F646C6065647F3A3C4B726A6364642568640B0 wrote: I don't get the Pirates being bashed because the Brewers finally made a move.  The Brewers did nothing the last five years after making a strong playoff run.  They had the lowest payroll in baseball last year.  But now, they are the best team in the league with the best owner?  Doesn't seem fair to me. 



Good for the Brewers.  They should be making moves.  They had 64 wins when the Pirates went for it in 2015.  The Brewers used their payroll flexibility.  They are currently near the Pirates now in payroll. 


It's cute that you come back to they didn't do anything for 5 years.  Pittsburgh hasn't done anything like this since when (don't lie and don't oversell retreads).  They are showing that they care.  They could crawl in a hole; cry poor and not upgrade after seeing Chicago, St. Louis do their thing, or say we are going to add too. Pittsburgh didn't go for it in 2015.  They didn't bring in one significant piece in 2015 that was young and playing well.  They brought in retreads and players who weren't playing well. Who did they get of this magnitude to "go for it"?  Be honest with yourself. 



Their moves to start the season were Bastardo, Cervelli, Florimon, Hart, and Kang.  That isn't Cain and Yelich.  Don't oversell Kang.



Going for it?  The trade deadline brought Bastardo, Blanton, Happ (who sucked in Seattle), an old ARam, Travis Snider (after he sucked in Baltimore) and Soria.  Retreads essentially.



The Pirates are being bashed because they failed to do anything after 2015 when their window was still open.  They are being bashed because they continue to keep prospects over bringing in someone significant to help.  They are being bashed because they don't reinvest the money on the product.  They won't reinvest the money saved on Cole and Cutch.  Don't use Rivero's four or five year extension as the reinvestment.  That doesn't help with the product in 2018.  They didn't reinvest the money saved in 2017 with Kang's deal and Marte's suspension.  They never reinvest with quality, but reclamation projects.  And we have an owner and a GM remaining steadfast that they are trying to put a competitive team on the field and they don't acquire anything that truly helps, or spend any money on someone that truly helps.  Instead, they cry poor.



KC went the extra step to get over the hurdle with acquisitions of Cueto and Shields.  They won a title after losing the WS the year before.  Very similar market.  Minnesota appears to be trying to build on their 2017 ... Milwaukee is not going status quo or getting worse.  All three very similar markets.  Cleveland - very similar market.  And you continue to not see the obvious.


So, what did the Brewers do the last five years?  They finally add to their payroll and they are the next band wagon team to jump on to bash the Pirates.



Why doesn't Cervelli, Kang, Liriano, and Burnett count for helping the 2015 Pirates?  Four players all played significant roles.



Those trades you mentioned didn't help?  Now, they are bad trades?  Why didn't the Brewers keep their long time 3B instead of dumping his salary?



I am praising the Brewers.  They made some good moves and took a risk by giving up some nice prospects.  I just don't see why people are bashing the Pirates in the process.  Like, 2013-2015 didn't happen.  I am just being fair.  The Pirates were where the Brewers want to be just a few years ago.  When the Pirates were winning (and I thought caring), the Brewers were losing and finishing 4th in the division.


Burnett wasn't part of the "go for it in 2015" mode.  Burnett came in 2012.  Liriano came in 2013.  They were already here, but yet, they were part of the "go for it" in 2015?  They weren't acquired for the "go for it" year you are trying to sell.  My 13 year old son knows that.  Kang was an unknown.  Cervelli was a backup in NY.  Neither were names that you can sell that the Pirates brought in knowing for the "go for it" year of 2015.



The Pirates deserved to be bashed.  They DIDN'T add anything significant as in a Yelich or Cain type during those three years.  They brought in reclamation projects.  Milwaukee is trying to compete with these moves.  Pittsburgh lucked into it.  That is a big difference.  They didn't use any money to bring in upgrades anywhere.  They failed to build on that 98-win season.  They failed to build on the momentum and now, we are back to being one of the worst franchises in the league.  Nutting has money, but fails to spend.  I'm not talking Boston, Chicago, Dodger or Yankee spending.  He continues to cry poor, but doesn't do a darn thing to improve the product and continues to POCKET money.  He was given a check of 50 million already.  Where is the improvement with that 50 million?  He will be given another check for revenue sharing.  Where will that money go as far as on field improvements?  There is a reason MLB is investigating.



Stop defending this ownership and management group.  It's indefensible.  Most people with a brain understand that.  You continue to give them a pass, which is an embarrassment. You aren't being fair. You are simply defending a cheap owner and his joke of a GM.



You bring up those trades is a joke considering neither AJB or Liriano were impactful acquisitions at the time they came. Those two franchises wanted those guys gone. They were acquired well before 2015, so your argument doesn't work. "Going for it in 2015" means bringing in actual good established players that were competent for 2015 season or at the deadline. I gave you the list. They weren't impactful at the time of the acquisitions. They were spare parts by the teams that traded them. They weren't of any value close to a Yelich or a Cain at that time of acquisition.



You really need to take a step back and look in the mirror regarding this topic. People with brains understand there is a major problem. You on the other hand continue to defend, which is a joke.

Liriano and Burnett were free agents. Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time. Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else. Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher. It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously. They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you. Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it? But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it? I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.

272C24282D2C377274033A222B2C2C6D202C430 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


Let me try it a different way and see if this makes sense: I'd have ZERO issue with this IF Neal had said the Pirates are rebuilding 2018 and 19. He didn't; he explicitly rejected this idea. He explicitly said the Pirates are in this to compete. He has plenty of flexibility to add on right now.



There has not been a single better opportunity to significantly improve the team since AJ walked into Neal's office and offered to play for $5M.



Further, Neal let a division rival walk in and improve itself.



All this represents the very opposite of competing. So here's the deal: said a few weeks back we'd find out if Neal was telling the truth or lying. It's not so much about what they did, its about what they "promised" and once again lied about. The only thing we're competing for is last place in the division.



Does that change the prospective?

I hate being lied to.....

505741494750171B62454F434B4E0C414D4F220 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


Let me try it a different way and see if this makes sense: I'd have ZERO issue with this IF Neal had said the Pirates are rebuilding 2018 and 19.  He didn't; he explicitly rejected this idea.  He explicitly said the Pirates are in this to compete. He has plenty of flexibility to add on right now. 



There has not been a single better opportunity to significantly improve the team since AJ walked into Neal's office and offered to play for $5M.



Further, Neal let a division rival walk in and improve itself. 



All this represents the very opposite of competing.  So here's the deal: said a few weeks back we'd find out if Neal was telling the truth or lying.  It's not so much about what they did, its about what they "promised" and once again lied about. The only thing we're competing for is last place in the division.



Does that change the prospective?

I hate being lied to.....




No one likes to be lied to. Many think they always lie. But now they are believed? All GMs give the fans hope. Did you watch the Winter Meetings? They all said the same thing.



Huntington is pretty careful in his wording. He did emphasize how this team will compete, will show up and give 100% every day. You can look at that as meaning giving it their all game in and game out. Or you can look at it as competing to make the playoffs.



I don't get too caught up in words. Actions speak louder to me. Trading Cole and McCutchen was the sign to me that they are rebuilding, even if they didn't actually say that. Though, Huntington did mention "three years from now".



I am not sure what this has to do with the conversation in hand about "going for it".

5A51595550514A0F097E475F565151105D513E0 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


LOL ... you realize Burnett was garbage prior to his return to Pittsburgh.  He was 8-18 with a 4.59 ERA.  No one else wanted him.  Sure, he was a free agent going back to a place where his career was resurrected.  However, his value was at an all time low.  Don't sell him as a stud.  He was again as a reclamation project.



Liriano was signed following a 6-12 record with a 5.35 ERA.  Certainly not anything to try to sell as an impact signing.  He was a fourth-rate pitcher at the time.



Neither of these two guys were trending well.  They had fallen back significantly.  Neither were of the additions of a Yelich or Cain.  Don't try to argue.  You will look like a fool.



Going for it is brining in significant pieces that were trending up, not reclamation projects that should have played in the Independent leagues.

2A21292520213A7F790E372F262121602D214E0 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


Let me try it a different way and see if this makes sense: I'd have ZERO issue with this IF Neal had said the Pirates are rebuilding 2018 and 19.  He didn't; he explicitly rejected this idea.  He explicitly said the Pirates are in this to compete. He has plenty of flexibility to add on right now. 



There has not been a single better opportunity to significantly improve the team since AJ walked into Neal's office and offered to play for $5M.



Further, Neal let a division rival walk in and improve itself. 



All this represents the very opposite of competing.  So here's the deal: said a few weeks back we'd find out if Neal was telling the truth or lying.  It's not so much about what they did, its about what they "promised" and once again lied about. The only thing we're competing for is last place in the division.



Does that change the prospective?

I hate being lied to.....




No one likes to be lied to.  Many think they always lie.  But now they are believed?  All GMs give the fans hope.  Did you watch the Winter Meetings?  They all said the same thing.



Huntington is pretty careful in his wording.  He did emphasize how this team will compete, will show up and give 100% every day.  You can look at that as meaning giving it their all game in and game out.  Or you can look at it as competing to make the playoffs.



I don't get too caught up in words.  Actions speak louder to me.  Trading Cole and McCutchen was the sign to me that they are rebuilding, even if they didn't actually say that.  Though, Huntington did mention "three years from now".



I am not sure what this has to do with the conversation in hand about "going for it". 




NH's version of competing is showing up every day. It has nothing to do with results. This team that he is trying to sell as one that will compete will be one of the worst team in MLB. That isn't fielding a competitive team. What changes three years from now? What significant pieces are brought in to help this roster? Do tell. You will have a new catcher - probably a bottom of the barrel type. Rivero will be long gone. Marte and Polanco will still be enigma's and I haven't even touched on the starting rotation.



Lesson ... don't try to sell to a fan base that this team will be competitive in 2018. Fans have a different idea of what the term competitive means. And don't say in three years ...

1B0B0A3D2B2B27480 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


LOL ... you realize Burnett was garbage prior to his return to Pittsburgh.  He was 8-18 with a 4.59 ERA.  No one else wanted him.  Sure, he was a free agent going back to a place where his career was resurrected.  However, his value was at an all time low.  Don't sell him as a stud.  He was again as a reclamation project.



Liriano was signed following a 6-12 record with a 5.35 ERA.  Certainly not anything to try to sell as an impact signing.  He was a fourth-rate pitcher at the time.



Neither of these two guys were trending well.  They had fallen back significantly.  Neither were of the additions of a Yelich or Cain.  Don't try to argue.  You will look like a fool.



Going for it is brining in significant pieces that were trending up, not reclamation projects that should have played in the Independent leagues.


My opinions are different than yours so I am a fool? Thanks for that.



Is it because you disagree with me in everything that you don't think bringing in three free agents and making a trade was not going for it? Even though, you know they improved and had the second best record in all of baseball?



One more time on a fact for you: Liriano was a free agent in 2015. He was a free agent signing.



Please keep it baseball. You can disagree. I am not a fool. Facts actually back me up. Your opinion about those guys not being impacts is odd to me since the proof that they were is clear as day.

78737B777273682D2B5C657D747373327F731C0 wrote: Liriano and Burnett were free agents.  Liriano was one of the top free agents on the market at the time.  Kang was won in a bidding war, meaning they spent more than everyone else.  Cervelli was a big need as the Pirates had a hole at catcher.  It doesn't matter if two of those guys were Pirates previously.  They could have gone anywhere, but the Pirates signed them.



If you don't think those four helped the team win 98 games, I don't know what to tell you.  Many think if Kang didn't get hurt, they would have won the Division.



Bringing in three players and signing their top pitcher after winning 88 games the season before and losing the Wild Card game isn't going for it?  But the Brewers making a trade for Yelich and signing Cain after winning 86 games is going for it?  I hope you can see the unfairness and why this is puzzling to some.


LOL ... you realize Burnett was garbage prior to his return to Pittsburgh.  He was 8-18 with a 4.59 ERA.  No one else wanted him.  Sure, he was a free agent going back to a place where his career was resurrected.  However, his value was at an all time low.  Don't sell him as a stud.  He was again as a reclamation project.



Liriano was signed following a 6-12 record with a 5.35 ERA.  Certainly not anything to try to sell as an impact signing.  He was a fourth-rate pitcher at the time.



Neither of these two guys were trending well.  They had fallen back significantly.  Neither were of the additions of a Yelich or Cain.  Don't try to argue.  You will look like a fool.



Going for it is brining in significant pieces that were trending up, not reclamation projects that should have played in the Independent leagues.


My opinions are different than yours so I am a fool?  Thanks for that.



Is it because you disagree with me in everything that you don't think bringing in three free agents and making a trade was not going for it?  Even though, you know they improved and had the second best record in all of baseball?



One more time on a fact for you:  Liriano was a free agent in 2015.  He was a free agent signing. 



Please keep it baseball.  You can disagree.  I am not a fool.  Facts actually back me up.  Your opinion about those guys not being impacts is odd to me since the proof that they were is clear as day. 


It's not that we just disagree. I think your opinions are way off base. Don't say you have facts. You are trying to sell two guys the Pirates got earlier for your "go for it in 2015" bs. AJB came back after a crap year in Philly. No one wanted him. That is a fact. 8-18, 4.59 ERA is fact. That is lousy. Liriano was resigned. Cool. When he was brought in, he didn't have the name of a Cain or Yelich. That is a fact. He was an enigma ... mostly a bust/reclamation project. They resigned a reclamation project that had a few good years in Pittsburgh. Congrats. They needed to bring in players from outside that were good to get this team over the hump. They failed miserably. That is fact, not fiction.



While KC brought in Cueto and James Shields in deals - sending prospects the other way, we bring in Byrd, Morneau and other reclamation projects. That is fact, not fiction.



This is a proud fan base waiting for its owner to spend some cash and put a good product out on the field. Sorry, those three years seem like two decades ago because this roster is far from the one that got 98 wins. They had a window to increase funds and "go for it". They failed. Instead, they decided to tank. Going for it isn't bringing in reclamation projects and hope to God they work. Going for it is bringing in players that are known, consistent and good ... not the Kyle Lohse's of the world (I know he never played here, but you know what I'm talking about - I hope) and hope to God they pan out.

You are right.  I don't know what you are talking about.  I am not way off base saying Liriano, Burnett, Cervelli and Kang were huge impacts to the 2015 team that had the second best record in all of baseball.  Liriano was still a top free agent in 2015.  I am not sure why you think he was a "reclamation project" or why that even matters.  He was a very good pitcher.  Burnett had his best ERA of his career in 2015 too.



Trades at the deadline were not Byrd and Morneau.  They were Happ and Soria, who also made very big impacts.  Just because you didn't like the trades doesn't mean they didn't produce.  They did produce.  Huntington was right.  But of course, when Huntington is right it is because he is lucky.  Were you unlucky in not liking those trades? 



Again, I am not a fool knowing the team won 98 games.  To put that in perspective, only one NL team and two in the AL won more games last year.  Yes, they went for it in 2015.  If they weren't going for it, why did they make any of those moves?



Oh yeah, Cueto was pretty bad for the Royals He wasn't resigned when he hit free agency. Shields walked in 2015 and wasn't part of their WS team.