OnlyBucs

665344444F7644444F4844210 wrote: I think that ship sailed when he was dealt to the Giants.  No way to know.  It's my gut feeling.



I hold an unpopular opinion on the issue.  I don't buy into that "clubhouse presence" nonsense.  These are Alpha Males.   Young Bucks have the goods these days.  I'm sure that they respect the veterans for their accomplishments and look up to them, but every guy has to pull his own weight.



I don't expect players to do anything more than to play.  It's nice when they're role models and maybe mentors, but that's not what i'd pay them for.  It's the managers and coaches job to manage and coach the players.
I think there can be value to veteran clubhouse leadership. A lot was made about how Stargell was a strong clubhouse leader. Frank Robinson did that for the Orioles. There have been many others throughout MLB history. This past season we had the incidents with not hustling, cell phone-gait and the sunflower seed snack at 3B in the middle of a play. Not big deals when a team is losing anyway. But unnecessary distractions can have a negative effect on a good team. If the Pirates are serious about improving, it helps to have veteran leadership behind the scenes to make younger players understand what is not acceptable.



However, it's tough to gain the respect of the younger players when they see the potential veteran leader struggling. Santana will be 37 in April. He hit .202 last year and .214 the year before that and his HR totals of 19 for each of the past 2 years were among his career lowest. Last year he set a career low in OBP and had his 3rd worst SLG. None of that is unexpected for an aging player near the end of his career. But it's unlikely he will earn respect like a Stargell or a Robinson who led by example both on and off the field. If Santana has a bounce-back year, he could be a good leader. But if his decline continues, I don't think he will have much value in the clubhouse.

It has value, but it's an old tune.  I don't pay extra for it.  I don't pay anything for it. 



It means squat unless the guy performs.  That's what I'll pay for.



The leadership I want comes from the manager's office.

The Official Pirate Site now shows that Santana is on the roster, but it doesn't show who has been removed as there are now 41 players listed.

So, what you're saying g is- Carlos Santana's Top 40. Someone's not.

002C2423280F382E3E4D0 wrote: The Official Pirate Site now shows that Santana is on the roster, but it doesn't show who has been removed as there are now 41 players listed.
Still waiting for a player to be removed from the roster. The Pirates said it will happen today, but so far no announcement.

142A2F27342C2C270722352671430 wrote: He'll be 37 on April 8. He's batted .204 in the 2020s, including .183 in the second half last year.




without the shift, I think he should do better






I read where teams shifted against him something like 98% of the time. I agree with you that he should be a big beneficiary of the new rule.

3532233023727F460 wrote: He'll be 37 on April 8. He's batted .204 in the 2020s, including .183 in the second half last year.




without the shift, I think he should do better






I read where teams shifted against him something like 98% of the time. I agree with you that he should be a big beneficiary of the new rule.




I did an unscientific estimate on this.  Lets say without the shift he would have gotten 13 more hits last year which make his total hits 100.  That raises his average to 232. 



23 more hits raises his average to 255.   



I don't know if either of those number of additional hits are realistic. 



I wonder what advanced analytics show the value of shifts to be? An additional 23 hits seems to be too many to me. The averages were calculated using the 431 at bats he had in 2022.   



taking away his homers he hit 165 with 68 hits in 412 at bats. he struck out 88 times so he had 343 times where he hit the ball.

143233243222510 wrote: He'll be 37 on April 8. He's batted .204 in the 2020s, including .183 in the second half last year.




without the shift, I think he should do better






I read where teams shifted against him something like 98% of the time. I agree with you that he should be a big beneficiary of the new rule.




I did an unscientific estimate on this.  Lets say without the shift he would have gotten 13 more hits last year which make his total hits 100.  That raises his average to 232. 



23 more hits raises his average to 255.   



I don't know if either of those number of additional hits are realistic. 



I wonder what advanced analytics show the value of shifts to be? An additional 23 hits seems to be too many to me. The averages were calculated using the 431 at bats he had in 2022.   



taking away his homers he hit 165 with 68 hits in 412 at bats. he struck out 88 times so he had 343 times where he hit the ball.


All MLB hitters stand to benefit from the elimination of the shift. So it's unlikely there will be an overall benefit to any team. The Pirates could see a significant improvement in team BA but still be last in the NL in team BA as all the other teams will also improve.

426F62737465723231000 wrote: He'll be 37 on April 8. He's batted .204 in the 2020s, including .183 in the second half last year.




without the shift, I think he should do better






I read where teams shifted against him something like 98% of the time. I agree with you that he should be a big beneficiary of the new rule.




I did an unscientific estimate on this.  Lets say without the shift he would have gotten 13 more hits last year which make his total hits 100.  That raises his average to 232. 



23 more hits raises his average to 255.   



I don't know if either of those number of additional hits are realistic. 



I wonder what advanced analytics show the value of shifts to be? An additional 23 hits seems to be too many to me. The averages were calculated using the 431 at bats he had in 2022.   



taking away his homers he hit 165 with 68 hits in 412 at bats. he struck out 88 times so he had 343 times where he hit the ball.


All MLB hitters stand to benefit from the elimination of the shift. So it's unlikely there will be an overall benefit to any team. The Pirates could see a significant improvement in team BA but still be last in the NL in team BA as all the other teams will also improve. 


It's so dumb and goes to counter to what they were trying to do. It's just going to make players swing for the fences even more.

I'm fine with that.