OnlyBucs

474C44484D4C571214635A424B4C4C0D404C230 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors.  It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball. 



Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit.  There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that. 



Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere.  He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates.  It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before.  The guy is hitting. 



I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates.  He controlled the running game and had some huge hits.  His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense.  I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team.  I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.


I already said catcher matters more. Acting like all you have to do is catch the ball to play defense is an outlandish over simplification. I cannot believe you typed that out.



Martin is actually another awful example for your idea about guys that hit will find a spot. Martin was very pedestrian his first season with the Pirates. His amazing defense alone is what made the impact on the 2013 team.



Jack Wilson played for years without hitting much at all. Why was he always playing?



Tom Prince managed to stay in the majors for 17 years and could not hit at all.



If you do not have a position to play, how exactly are you going to play in the majors? There are only 15 DH jobs.



Eric Fryer got DFA's by the Cards when he was hitting. Terrible example for your cause.



Francisco Liriano added to the team, Pedro playing solid defense at third with solid offense, McCutchen winning the MVP...these things were just secondary to Martin? He was part of it, but he was not the sole reason at all.

5D565E5257564D080E794058515656175A56390 wrote: Yes, I agree about the Catching position. 



It still has to balance out.  Teams will take a Jason Kendall and his average defense over Tom Prince and his lack of a bat.



Line up around you helps makes that decision too.  martin was the first catcher in a long time to do it all.  I appreciated his time here in Pittsburgh.



I don't think Cervelli is as good as Martin, but Cervelli is not far behind.  He is at least in the next tier when comparing catchers.  I appreciate Cervelli too.


Except that Kendall was a decent defensive catcher. You keep ignoring that.



And Martin did not hit much at all in 2013.



And the countless other examples. Just because Tom Prince did not play much over his 17 year career in the majors does not mean it is a fact that bats play over defense. The Pirates did not sign Martin or Cervelli for their bats.

6568695E4848444D4A452B0 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors.  It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball. 



Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit.  There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that. 



Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere.  He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates.  It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before.  The guy is hitting. 



I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates.  He controlled the running game and had some huge hits.  His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense.  I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team.  I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.


I already said catcher matters more.  Acting like all you have to do is catch the ball to play defense is an outlandish over simplification.  I cannot believe you typed that out.



Martin is actually another awful example for your idea about guys that hit will find a spot.  Martin was very pedestrian his first season with the Pirates.  His amazing defense alone is what made the impact on the 2013 team.



Jack Wilson played for years without hitting much at all.  Why was he always playing?



Tom Prince managed to stay in the majors for 17 years and could not hit at all.



If you do not have a position to play, how exactly are you going to play in the majors?  There are only 15 DH jobs.



Eric Fryer got DFA's by the Cards when he was hitting.  Terrible example for your cause.



Francisco Liriano added to the team, Pedro playing solid defense at third with solid offense, McCutchen winning the MVP...these things were just secondary to Martin?  He was part of it, but he was not the sole reason at all.








Why are you spinning my last comment? I never said that Liriano or Alvarez (defense?, led the league in errors) or McCutchen didn't help the Pirates make the playoffs. Many factors involved, but Martin was a big factor TOO. I stand by my comment that they don't make the Playoffs without him TOO.

373C34383D3C276264132A323B3C3C7D303C530 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors.  It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball. 



Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit.  There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that. 



Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere.  He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates.  It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before.  The guy is hitting. 



I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates.  He controlled the running game and had some huge hits.  His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense.  I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team.  I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.


I already said catcher matters more.  Acting like all you have to do is catch the ball to play defense is an outlandish over simplification.  I cannot believe you typed that out.



Martin is actually another awful example for your idea about guys that hit will find a spot.  Martin was very pedestrian his first season with the Pirates.  His amazing defense alone is what made the impact on the 2013 team.



Jack Wilson played for years without hitting much at all.  Why was he always playing?



Tom Prince managed to stay in the majors for 17 years and could not hit at all.



If you do not have a position to play, how exactly are you going to play in the majors?  There are only 15 DH jobs.



Eric Fryer got DFA's by the Cards when he was hitting.  Terrible example for your cause.



Francisco Liriano added to the team, Pedro playing solid defense at third with solid offense, McCutchen winning the MVP...these things were just secondary to Martin?  He was part of it, but he was not the sole reason at all.








Why are you spinning my last comment?  I never said that Liriano or Alvarez (defense?, led the league in errors) or McCutchen didn't help the Pirates make the playoffs.  Many factors involved, but Martin was a big factor TOO.  I stand by my comment that they don't make the Playoffs without him TOO. 






Maybe because I directly asked you if he was the reason or not, and you said he was.



Martin also did not hit in 2013, which you also seemed to be claiming. He was not an all around catcher that year.

If I may referee here, I believe Dog's comment was that the Pirates wouldn't have made the playoffs without Martin. That doesn't mean Martin was a one man gang. Obviously, there was a lot of talent on that team. The Bucs had excellent pitching in 2013. Martin likely had a lot to do with that. With a lesser catcher, we might not have seen the same pitching results. There were several key players on the team and the absence of any one of them might have had a very negative effect. Martin was probably one of those guys. Doesn't mean he was their MVP.

5B56576076767A73747B150 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors.  It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball. 



Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit.  There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that. 



Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere.  He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates.  It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before.  The guy is hitting. 



I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates.  He controlled the running game and had some huge hits.  His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense.  I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team.  I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.


I already said catcher matters more.  Acting like all you have to do is catch the ball to play defense is an outlandish over simplification.  I cannot believe you typed that out.



Martin is actually another awful example for your idea about guys that hit will find a spot.  Martin was very pedestrian his first season with the Pirates.  His amazing defense alone is what made the impact on the 2013 team.



Jack Wilson played for years without hitting much at all.  Why was he always playing?



Tom Prince managed to stay in the majors for 17 years and could not hit at all.



If you do not have a position to play, how exactly are you going to play in the majors?  There are only 15 DH jobs.



Eric Fryer got DFA's by the Cards when he was hitting.  Terrible example for your cause.



Francisco Liriano added to the team, Pedro playing solid defense at third with solid offense, McCutchen winning the MVP...these things were just secondary to Martin?  He was part of it, but he was not the sole reason at all.








Why are you spinning my last comment?  I never said that Liriano or Alvarez (defense?, led the league in errors) or McCutchen didn't help the Pirates make the playoffs.  Many factors involved, but Martin was a big factor TOO.  I stand by my comment that they don't make the Playoffs without him TOO. 






Maybe because I directly asked you if he was the reason or not, and you said he was.



Martin also did not hit in 2013, which you also seemed to be claiming.  He was not an all around catcher that year.




That's not really accurate. Martin's batting average was only .226 but he had an OPS+ of 100. His WAR was divided equally between offense and defense that year.

I don't think the Pirates make the playoffs with Rod Barajas, Mike McKenry, Ryan Doumit, Jason Jaramillo, or Chris Snyder. Sorry, I just don't.



Since Jack Wilson was brought up, he batted .270 for the Pirates with a few years over .290+. He was a great glove and I thought he got ripped off of at least one Gold Glove. Wilson's bat wasn't great but it was above average.



Some players are great on defense, but can't hit and don't last. It's been proven over and over that one has to hit to stick around. It is very rare for non hitters to play a long time. Sure, there are some cases, but still in the minority.

735E53424554430300310 wrote: If I may referee here, I believe Dog's comment was that the Pirates wouldn't have made the playoffs without Martin. That doesn't mean Martin was a one man gang. Obviously, there was a lot of talent on that team. The Bucs had excellent pitching in 2013. Martin likely had a lot to do with that. With a lesser catcher, we might not have seen the same pitching results. There were several key players on the team and the absence of any one of them might have had a very negative effect. Martin was probably one of those guys. Doesn't mean he was their MVP.




Thats fine, but I asked him to clarify his comment and that is not what he said.



He is also oddly claiming Martin did it as a complete catcher, when in fact, Martin was not hitting much at all. It was all defense. I find if hard to believe he would actually agree with what you are saying, since he is claiming offense matters more.

1E3B283D212A2120252D490 wrote: You still need to hit in the majors to stay in the majors.  It is a lot easier to catch a baseball than hit a baseball. 



Bats always find a position, gloves go away if they can't hit.  There are many examples just on the Pirates in recent years to prove that. 



Catcher is a little different, but there is still a reason why Chris Stewart isn't starting somewhere.  He batted under .220 the previous seasons before joining the Pirates.  It is also not a coincidence that Eric Fryer is playing more this year than he has before.  The guy is hitting. 



I will stand by how Martin was special to the Pirates.  He controlled the running game and had some huge hits.  His bat was even better in 2014 with his stellar defense.  I also didn't say he was the only reason they made the playoffs, but he was a big part of the team.  I don't think they would have made the playoffs without Martin.


I already said catcher matters more.  Acting like all you have to do is catch the ball to play defense is an outlandish over simplification.  I cannot believe you typed that out.



Martin is actually another awful example for your idea about guys that hit will find a spot.  Martin was very pedestrian his first season with the Pirates.  His amazing defense alone is what made the impact on the 2013 team.



Jack Wilson played for years without hitting much at all.  Why was he always playing?



Tom Prince managed to stay in the majors for 17 years and could not hit at all.



If you do not have a position to play, how exactly are you going to play in the majors?  There are only 15 DH jobs.



Eric Fryer got DFA's by the Cards when he was hitting.  Terrible example for your cause.



Francisco Liriano added to the team, Pedro playing solid defense at third with solid offense, McCutchen winning the MVP...these things were just secondary to Martin?  He was part of it, but he was not the sole reason at all.








Why are you spinning my last comment?  I never said that Liriano or Alvarez (defense?, led the league in errors) or McCutchen didn't help the Pirates make the playoffs.  Many factors involved, but Martin was a big factor TOO.  I stand by my comment that they don't make the Playoffs without him TOO. 






Maybe because I directly asked you if he was the reason or not, and you said he was.



Martin also did not hit in 2013, which you also seemed to be claiming.  He was not an all around catcher that year.




That's not really accurate. Martin's batting average was only .226 but he had an OPS+ of 100. His WAR was divided equally between offense and defense that year.


Umm, not it was not. His Offensive runs above average was -.1. His Defensive runs above average was 22.7.



His value in 2013 was solely defense.



100 OPS+ was average, even for a catcher. His defense was not average.

747F777B7E7F642127506971787F7F3E737F100 wrote: I don't think the Pirates make the playoffs with Rod Barajas, Mike McKenry, Ryan Doumit, Jason Jaramillo, or Chris Snyder. Sorry, I just don't.



Since Jack Wilson was brought up, he batted .270 for the Pirates with a few years over .290+. He was a great glove and I thought he got ripped off of at least one Gold Glove. Wilson's bat wasn't great but it was above average.



Some players are great on defense, but can't hit and don't last. It's been proven over and over that one has to hit to stick around. It is very rare for non hitters to play a long time. Sure, there are some cases, but still in the minority.


Yep, you are right. The Pirates just needed Russ Martin on those teams and they would have been in the playoffs so much sooner.



Jack Wilson had an OPS of .687 as a Pirate. He was not a good hitter. You did not just call Jack Wilson's bat above average. Please tell me this is a joke. Please.



You have not named anyone other than Tom Prince. It is not rare at all for elite fielders to stick for a long time. Kevin Pillar is playing, Jose Iglesias...many more. And that is just this season.