Josh Bell
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Josh Bell
I think any move happening will depend in part on what happens this winter with the DH. There have been rumblings. If adopted, it would change a lot on who plays where. That aside, I don't see the Pirates making a trade with current talent for an established starting pitcher. It's just not their M.O. On the standpoint of what's likely to happen (as opposed to what we might like to happen) I would expect them to look for younger, prospect types.
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Bobster21
Josh Bell
53514B4D5B3E0 wrote: I think any move happening will depend in part on what happens this winter with the DH. There have been rumblings. If adopted, it would change a lot on who plays where. That aside, I don't see the Pirates making a trade with current talent for an established starting pitcher. It's just not their M.O. On the standpoint of what's likely to happen (as opposed to what we might like to happen) I would expect them to look for younger, prospect types.
I agree. The rotation should have Cole, Taillon and Kuhl. Re-signing Nova would be nice but not consistent with the almighty financial flexibility so worshiped by this FO. They will certainly give Hutchison a shot in ST if for no other reason than to pass off the surrender of McGuire and Ramirez as something more than the Liriano salary dump. Glasnow, Williams and Brault are possibles but I don't realistically see Brault in the rotation. Locke and Vogelsong are not under contract after this year and unlikely to be back. It would make no sense to trade a key player for a veteran starter unless that starter was under control for several years. But that would have to be someone they perceive as being better than whatever young pitcher he is blocking and also someone with not too big a salary (which is always their primary concern). Outside of Chris Archer, I can't quickly think of anyone who would meet that criteria. Realistically, I expect a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Kuhl and 2 of Glasnow, Hutchison and Williams with the FO lovin' life at how little their rotation is costing.
I agree. The rotation should have Cole, Taillon and Kuhl. Re-signing Nova would be nice but not consistent with the almighty financial flexibility so worshiped by this FO. They will certainly give Hutchison a shot in ST if for no other reason than to pass off the surrender of McGuire and Ramirez as something more than the Liriano salary dump. Glasnow, Williams and Brault are possibles but I don't realistically see Brault in the rotation. Locke and Vogelsong are not under contract after this year and unlikely to be back. It would make no sense to trade a key player for a veteran starter unless that starter was under control for several years. But that would have to be someone they perceive as being better than whatever young pitcher he is blocking and also someone with not too big a salary (which is always their primary concern). Outside of Chris Archer, I can't quickly think of anyone who would meet that criteria. Realistically, I expect a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Kuhl and 2 of Glasnow, Hutchison and Williams with the FO lovin' life at how little their rotation is costing.
Josh Bell
587578696E7F68282B1A0 wrote: I think any move happening will depend in part on what happens this winter with the DH. There have been rumblings. If adopted, it would change a lot on who plays where. That aside, I don't see the Pirates making a trade with current talent for an established starting pitcher. It's just not their M.O. On the standpoint of what's likely to happen (as opposed to what we might like to happen) I would expect them to look for younger, prospect types.
I agree. The rotation should have Cole, Taillon and Kuhl. Re-signing Nova would be nice but not consistent with the almighty financial flexibility so worshiped by this FO. They will certainly give Hutchison a shot in ST if for no other reason than to pass off the surrender of McGuire and Ramirez as something more than the Liriano salary dump. Glasnow, Williams and Brault are possibles but I don't realistically see Brault in the rotation. Locke and Vogelsong are not under contract after this year and unlikely to be back. It would make no sense to trade a key player for a veteran starter unless that starter was under control for several years. But that would have to be someone they perceive as being better than whatever young pitcher he is blocking and also someone with not too big a salary (which is always their primary concern). Outside of Chris Archer, I can't quickly think of anyone who would meet that criteria. Realistically, I expect a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Kuhl and 2 of Glasnow, Hutchison and Williams with the FO lovin' life at how little their rotation is costing.
While my expectations about what the Pirates are actually likely to do are very much like yours, the salary specifics of the three pitchers (see below) I suggested earlier as trade targets make them bargains even by Pirate management/ownership standards. These guys wouldn't be blocking anyone in the organization as their experience and talent aren't matched by anyone other than Cole. Trading for any of these three would make good baseball sense in terms of addressing the team's biggest need, and none of them would be making as much as Liriano was paid by the Pirates in 2015 and 2016 during the entire length of their contracts.
Jose Quintana (27Yrs) - signed thru 2020: $7M,$8.85M,$10.5M,$11.5M last two years are team options
Carlos Carrrasco (29Yrs)- signed thru 2020: $6.5M,$8M,$9M,$9.5M last two years are team options
Chris Archer ((27Yrs)- signed thru 2021: $4.92M,$6.42M,$7.67M,$9M,$11M last two years are team options
I agree. The rotation should have Cole, Taillon and Kuhl. Re-signing Nova would be nice but not consistent with the almighty financial flexibility so worshiped by this FO. They will certainly give Hutchison a shot in ST if for no other reason than to pass off the surrender of McGuire and Ramirez as something more than the Liriano salary dump. Glasnow, Williams and Brault are possibles but I don't realistically see Brault in the rotation. Locke and Vogelsong are not under contract after this year and unlikely to be back. It would make no sense to trade a key player for a veteran starter unless that starter was under control for several years. But that would have to be someone they perceive as being better than whatever young pitcher he is blocking and also someone with not too big a salary (which is always their primary concern). Outside of Chris Archer, I can't quickly think of anyone who would meet that criteria. Realistically, I expect a rotation of Cole, Taillon, Kuhl and 2 of Glasnow, Hutchison and Williams with the FO lovin' life at how little their rotation is costing.
While my expectations about what the Pirates are actually likely to do are very much like yours, the salary specifics of the three pitchers (see below) I suggested earlier as trade targets make them bargains even by Pirate management/ownership standards. These guys wouldn't be blocking anyone in the organization as their experience and talent aren't matched by anyone other than Cole. Trading for any of these three would make good baseball sense in terms of addressing the team's biggest need, and none of them would be making as much as Liriano was paid by the Pirates in 2015 and 2016 during the entire length of their contracts.
Jose Quintana (27Yrs) - signed thru 2020: $7M,$8.85M,$10.5M,$11.5M last two years are team options
Carlos Carrrasco (29Yrs)- signed thru 2020: $6.5M,$8M,$9M,$9.5M last two years are team options
Chris Archer ((27Yrs)- signed thru 2021: $4.92M,$6.42M,$7.67M,$9M,$11M last two years are team options
Josh Bell
2F242C2025243F7A7C0B322A2324246528244B0 wrote: I like those guys, but why do you think they are available? Why do you think their current teams wouldn't want them and prefer someone older and makes more money? Why isn't Cole worth more than those guys considering his age and salary?
Each team would ask something different. I think the White Sox and Rays would want soon to be ready prospects, starting with Meadows. I think Quail said above (and I agree with), Cleveland would want Polanco or Marte. None of that is necessarily unrealistic.
Each team would ask something different. I think the White Sox and Rays would want soon to be ready prospects, starting with Meadows. I think Quail said above (and I agree with), Cleveland would want Polanco or Marte. None of that is necessarily unrealistic.
Josh Bell
3A31393530312A6F691E273F363131703D315E0 wrote: I like those guys, but why do you think they are available? Why do you think their current teams wouldn't want them and prefer someone older and makes more money? Why isn't Cole worth more than those guys considering his age and salary?
Dog- I don't know if any of those three pitchers are available. What I do know is that they fit the profile of a young, cost controlled, experienced and talented starting pitcher who could instantly become the #2 in our starting rotation next year. I know that if I were the Pirates' GM I'd be enquiring about each of them this offseason. Each of the teams involved with these pitchers are weak at one or more outfield spots. By offering up any one of our starting outfielders (or Meadows) as a trade chip we could deal from a position of strength for a position of need.
The question is whether Tampa Bay, Chicago, or Cleveland would consider upgrading their outfield to be worth parting with a talented young pitcher. It's not unreasonable to think they might. All three of those teams have what seems to be good depth in their starting pitching and a need for upgrading their outfield production.
This has nothing to do with Cole. Cole is still our #1 starter. He needs to get healthy this offseason and come to spring training ready to correct whatever problems he had this year. What I would like to see happen would be a trade that brings us one of those pitchers and the signing of Nova so that going into 2017 the Pirates starting rotation would look like this:
1. Cole 2. Trade guy 3. Nova 4. Taillon 5. Kuhl 6. Glasnow 7. Brault 8. Williams
That's a good combination of experience, youth, talent and depth, with the potential to be one of the best rotations in the league. It could put us right back into contention for a division title in 2017, and I don't think it's so far fetched as to be totally unrealistic.
Dog- I don't know if any of those three pitchers are available. What I do know is that they fit the profile of a young, cost controlled, experienced and talented starting pitcher who could instantly become the #2 in our starting rotation next year. I know that if I were the Pirates' GM I'd be enquiring about each of them this offseason. Each of the teams involved with these pitchers are weak at one or more outfield spots. By offering up any one of our starting outfielders (or Meadows) as a trade chip we could deal from a position of strength for a position of need.
The question is whether Tampa Bay, Chicago, or Cleveland would consider upgrading their outfield to be worth parting with a talented young pitcher. It's not unreasonable to think they might. All three of those teams have what seems to be good depth in their starting pitching and a need for upgrading their outfield production.
This has nothing to do with Cole. Cole is still our #1 starter. He needs to get healthy this offseason and come to spring training ready to correct whatever problems he had this year. What I would like to see happen would be a trade that brings us one of those pitchers and the signing of Nova so that going into 2017 the Pirates starting rotation would look like this:
1. Cole 2. Trade guy 3. Nova 4. Taillon 5. Kuhl 6. Glasnow 7. Brault 8. Williams
That's a good combination of experience, youth, talent and depth, with the potential to be one of the best rotations in the league. It could put us right back into contention for a division title in 2017, and I don't think it's so far fetched as to be totally unrealistic.
Josh Bell
606B636F6A6B703533447D656C6B6B2A676B040 wrote: Good post, I was just curious. It would be a tough decision to trade those guys.
If McCutchen gets extended, Meadows would be on a lot of teams radar.
Absolutely right Dog. What I'm proposing is not going to be painless for either team. The Pirates would be giving up serious talent to acquire serious talent.
If McCutchen gets extended, Meadows would be on a lot of teams radar.
Absolutely right Dog. What I'm proposing is not going to be painless for either team. The Pirates would be giving up serious talent to acquire serious talent.