OnlyBucs

Not going to jump into the discussion comparing the Astros and Pirates, except as a general cautionary tale for Houston--go in and do whatever you can to win now, because no matter how well equipped you think you are for the future it could all just go away.

3E353D3134352E6B6D1A233B3235357439355A0 wrote: That's the other belief:  Luck.



Cracks me up that the Pirates "got lucky" instead of actually knowing that Burnett, Martin, Liriano, Melancon, and Volquez were going to perform.  Huntington brought all those guys in to win and they did.  He doesn't get that credit, he was just lucky because others didn't expect the numbers they put up?  Ugh.



Sorry, that you don't see how the Pirates built the team from the minors and added veterans to fill in the blanks. 



The Astros did trade one big prospect in Mark Appel.  I give them credit for that one as Appel has been a dud.  They probably figured that out and shipped him away.  If the Pirates did that, it probably would have been just luck. 



Drafting Appel was a bad choice by the Pirates.  But not the Astros.  They drafted him #1 and gave him $6.35 million.  They were knocked on the Carlos Correa pick and was told they were too cheap to pick Appel #1.  The Astros certainly made the right decision. I seriously doubt the Pirates fans would have liked that move at the time.   The Pirates weren't afraid to pick Appel because of his signing demands after the Astros passed on him.



Astros rise from 50 wins to competing and making the playoffs through the draft and adding veterans.  Sorry, for pointing out the comparisons.  Or thinking there is a comparison.    








I never said Huntington doesn't get credit.  I've consistently said he's a top 5 GM in MLB and the Pirates are lucky to have him.  He consistently makes lemonade out of the lemons he's given.  If he had the resources of the Red Sox and Cubs, he'd be mentioned in the same breath as Epstein.



And drafting Appel was NOT a bad choice by the Pirates.  He was viewed by many as the best player in that draft.  The fact that he fell to Pittsburgh at #8 was a miracle.  I give NH props for drafting the BPA (usually).  Alvarez, Cole, Appel, Taillon...all either the clear cut BPA or at least in the conversation (Taillon vs. Machado).



And yes, the Astros were right to take Correa #1.



But here's the thing...Burnett was terrible before coming to Pitt.  So was Liriano.  Martin was "meh."  These moves weren't exactly going after Max Scherzer.  They worked.  The Pirates pretty clearly knew more than others, whether it was Ray Searage, or Mike Fitzgerald (as Travis Sawchick masterfully wrote about in his book Big Data Baseball), somebody saw something in each of those guys that no one else saw.  Problem is...that advantage has dried up.  Everybody is into SABERmetrics now.  Everybody shifts.  Everybody values pitch framing, and in a few years when computers call balls and strikes, NOBODY will value pitch framing.  It will be completely useless.



The point is that Burnett, Liriano, and Martin could have just as easily tanked as they did take off.  Melancon was thought to be a bum when the Bucs got him from Boston.  Grilli was thought to be washed up.  All of these guys found something in Pittsburgh, but that's not a consistent model of success.  It worked for three years, and props to NH.  Heck, props to NH for building a team that was competitive in 2011, 2012, made the playoffs in 2013, 2014, 2015, and was competitive again in 2016, and is sort of accidentally we-play-in-a-crappy-division competitive again this year.



But long term...yeah, give me Correa, Bregman, Moran, Springer, Keuchel, and McCullers, a big market, and an owner willing to spend a little $$$, and the Astros long-term prospects are much, much higher than the Pirates.  In my mind, the only thing keeping the Pirates mildly competitive is what I outlined above...NH is a top 5 GM in baseball.  If he didn't have one hand tied behind his back, he'd have a WS by now.

454D4E796F4A6D620C0 wrote: That's the other belief:  Luck.



Cracks me up that the Pirates "got lucky" instead of actually knowing that Burnett, Martin, Liriano, Melancon, and Volquez were going to perform.  Huntington brought all those guys in to win and they did.  He doesn't get that credit, he was just lucky because others didn't expect the numbers they put up?  Ugh.



Sorry, that you don't see how the Pirates built the team from the minors and added veterans to fill in the blanks. 



The Astros did trade one big prospect in Mark Appel.  I give them credit for that one as Appel has been a dud.  They probably figured that out and shipped him away.  If the Pirates did that, it probably would have been just luck. 



Drafting Appel was a bad choice by the Pirates.  But not the Astros.  They drafted him #1 and gave him $6.35 million.  They were knocked on the Carlos Correa pick and was told they were too cheap to pick Appel #1.  The Astros certainly made the right decision. I seriously doubt the Pirates fans would have liked that move at the time.   The Pirates weren't afraid to pick Appel because of his signing demands after the Astros passed on him.



Astros rise from 50 wins to competing and making the playoffs through the draft and adding veterans.  Sorry, for pointing out the comparisons.  Or thinking there is a comparison.    








I never said Huntington doesn't get credit.  I've consistently said he's a top 5 GM in MLB and the Pirates are lucky to have him.  He consistently makes lemonade out of the lemons he's given.  If he had the resources of the Red Sox and Cubs, he'd be mentioned in the same breath as Epstein.



And drafting Appel was NOT a bad choice by the Pirates.  He was viewed by many as the best player in that draft.  The fact that he fell to Pittsburgh at #8 was a miracle.  I give NH props for drafting the BPA (usually).  Alvarez, Cole, Appel, Taillon...all either the clear cut BPA or at least in the conversation (Taillon vs. Machado).



And yes, the Astros were right to take Correa #1.



But here's the thing...Burnett was terrible before coming to Pitt.  So was Liriano.  Martin was "meh."  These moves weren't exactly going after Max Scherzer.  They worked.  The Pirates pretty clearly knew more than others, whether it was Ray Searage, or Mike Fitzgerald (as Travis Sawchick masterfully wrote about in his book Big Data Baseball), somebody saw something in each of those guys that no one else saw.  Problem is...that advantage has dried up.  Everybody is into SABERmetrics now.  Everybody shifts.  Everybody values pitch framing, and in a few years when computers call balls and strikes, NOBODY will value pitch framing.  It will be completely useless.



The point is that Burnett, Liriano, and Martin could have just as easily tanked as they did take off.  Melancon was thought to be a bum when the Bucs got him from Boston.  Grilli was thought to be washed up.  All of these guys found something in Pittsburgh, but that's not a consistent model of success.  It worked for three years, and props to NH.  Heck, props to NH for building a team that was competitive in 2011, 2012, made the playoffs in 2013, 2014, 2015, and was competitive again in 2016, and is sort of accidentally we-play-in-a-crappy-division competitive again this year.



But long term...yeah, give me Correa, Bregman, Moran, Springer, Keuchel, and McCullers, a big market, and an owner willing to spend a little $$$, and the Astros long-term prospects are much, much higher than the Pirates.  In my mind, the only thing keeping the Pirates mildly competitive is what I outlined above...NH is a top 5 GM in baseball.  If he didn't have one hand tied behind his back, he'd have a WS by now.


You accurately described the Pirates model. It has little to do with the Astros model.

Being in a big market should definitely make it easier for the Astros.

093B37372311323B36333C3B5A0 wrote: Not going to jump into the discussion comparing the Astros and Pirates, except as a general cautionary tale for Houston--go in and do whatever you can to win now, because no matter how well equipped you think you are for the future it could all just go away. 


Amen. Go for it. Then rebuild it. Then go for it again.

7C7B6D656B7C3B374E69636F6762206D61630E0 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?


I don't see any response??



For you, with this paint job, how about $25K.  Maybe half the price for a similar MB. 




No thanks on the Civic.  I am not really in a market for a car right now.  I don't like white cars either. 



Sorry, that you don't see the comparisons for the current Astros and the 2011-15 Pirates.  Oh well.




WOW.  What a cop-out.  I laid out documented differences that disprove your rhetoric.  Then you offer this as a response?



Fact is, you didn't respond to me notwithstanding your claim otherwise. Tell you what: just cut and paste your response to me.  Don't have to type another word. Just cut n paste. Or step down from the edge of the cliff you're so willing to stand on for Mr Nutting.






I explained my position a few times in this thread. I can't keep rewording it for you. Not a cop out, I said my peace. Go reread my posts for your answers.

Bob's bottom line is about to get bigger.

Disney said its new services would be based on technology provided by video-streaming firm BAMTech, and announced it would pay $1.58 billion to buy an additional 42 percent stake in that company, which it took a minority stake in last year.


BAMTech is the internet streaming company owned by the MLB owners. I don't know what the split will be between investing the proceeds back into the company and a dividend for the owners. But I'm pretty sure whatever money Nutting gets won't be dedicated to the Bucs' "financial flexibility."

262D25292C2D367375023B232A2D2D6C212D420 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?


I don't see any response??



For you, with this paint job, how about $25K.  Maybe half the price for a similar MB. 




No thanks on the Civic.  I am not really in a market for a car right now.  I don't like white cars either. 



Sorry, that you don't see the comparisons for the current Astros and the 2011-15 Pirates.  Oh well.




WOW.  What a cop-out.  I laid out documented differences that disprove your rhetoric.  Then you offer this as a response?



Fact is, you didn't respond to me notwithstanding your claim otherwise. Tell you what: just cut and paste your response to me.  Don't have to type another word. Just cut n paste. Or step down from the edge of the cliff you're so willing to stand on for Mr Nutting.






I explained my position a few times in this thread. I can't keep rewording it for you. Not a cop out, I said my peace. Go reread my posts for your answers.




I reread them. Nope. No answer. ::)

0C2B20034E0 wrote: Bob's bottom line is about to get bigger.

Disney said its new services would be based on technology provided by video-streaming firm BAMTech, and announced it would pay $1.58 billion to buy an additional 42 percent stake in that company, which it took a minority stake in last year.


BAMTech is the internet streaming company owned by the MLB owners. I don't know what the split will be between investing the proceeds back into the company and a dividend for the owners. But I'm pretty sure whatever money Nutting gets won't be dedicated to the Bucs' "financial flexibility."


Cable could unwind pretty quickly. My hope is AT&T, given its massive resources and technology, will be a leader in reinventing the RSN for streaming. This could allow for the Pirates to be on The front edge of new delivery. The next year to 18 months is going to be huge for Nutting and the Pirates.

Very interesting article. I feel like you could substitute the word "Pirates" every time you see the word "Marlins," and it would read the same.



http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1865 ... ure-profit