OnlyBucs

It doesn't make sense to you or me, perhaps, but unfortunately it makes sense to Mr. Nutting, and he's the one who gets to decide. I suspect NH has a budget of around 95MM to work with. Right now they are projected at about 100MM. If they trade Cutch they save 14MM. I would guess about 9MM of that would be available to sign free agents. A fourth outfielder and no doubt a clearance priced relief pitcher or two.

606961707E040 wrote: I think Harrison would be extremely valuable to the Yankees. With the 2 young guys in the infield Harrison could spell them at any time and/or start until they are acclimated. He can also move to the OF. The best thing he is very good on defense no matter where you put him.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this.  I don't.  Again, curious as to what is his value.  I think if you are trading both, you send them in separate deals.


Yep. As I said earlier I would do the Cole for Frazier, Andujar and Adams trade right now. I have no idea what would be offered for JHay alone.
I was hoping for a Cole for Frazier, Adams, and Andujar. The Yanks might be hesitant to do that. I would hate to see JHay go. He is the heart and soul of the team. The clubhouse would suffer in my opinion. Instead I would try to make this a mega deal. Would the Yanks consider Cole, Rivero, and Freese for Frazier, Adams, Andujar, and Torres?


Why would the Yankees want Rivero?  They have Chapman.  Why would they want David Freese?  Truly a part-time guy who has a glove but not enought power or stamina to play 162 games. 



I've been on OBN since almost the beginning and I am afraid that you like me often over estimate the worth of the guys we think the Bucs should trade.  I sure hope that NH is looking elsewhere for deals for Cole, Harrison, Cutch and perhaps Rivero.  Make the Yankees squirm if that is possible.



I can't fault you for being a dreamer.  Who knows that dream might come true!




My thinking is Freese could bridge the gap until Machado is available. Rivero and Chapman gives the Yanks the most dominating bullpen in baseball. Also provides insurance either way in case of injury. Bucs keep JHay and his versatility. My dream aspect is that the Bucs sign Cutch for 4-5 years. They are getting 50 million extra this year. That 50M plus the savings from Cole and Freese would allow the Bucs to offer Cutch 4-5 years at 20M a year.

In summary the Bucs retool with Frazier, Adams, Andujar, Torres and would still be able to compete with most of the roster intact.




WHY?  WHY?  WHY?



Do you really think he's not on the downward slope of his career, with maybe one bounceback year left in him before he becomes a middle-of-the-road player?  Cutch is the archetype of the player we should NOT be paying $20 mil to for years at a time.  Why pay him 20% of the team's salary for 4-5 years?  If we're gonna spend ownership's money (and I'm all for that), let's not buy an albatross.






Well, we are not going to sign anyone with the 50 million so better Cutch gets it than an imaginary player.



Better yet, trade him and sign other good players with a future.    (Haha, I know funny right?)






I'd LIKE to argue with you about this, but I can't. I keep hoping that eventually, after all these years, they will have knocked down their debts enough that ownership would be comfortable in reinvesting, but when we didn't get any heavy investments in the 2014 - 2016 teams, that showed they're never going to knock enough off that they feel comfortable in doing that.



Still, if we're gonna do thought experiments and, "what would WE do", I think we could do better than propose spending $80-$100 Mil on Cutch at this point in his career. We already have actual ownership making poor/no moves. No need to do that in the hypothetical as well.



We've had these conversations on the board before, where we notice great or very good players who get paid large contracts just when they aren't really earning them any more. Contracts like these are paying them for previous performance, not so much for the performance they'll be putting up during the big contract. Nice for the player, but not the best value for the team.



And damn, I can NOT understand why Cutch dropped off. Several years back, I'd have bet money on him putting up his all-star numbers into his mid 30's. He seems to stay healthy and is in great shape, but it just doesn't seem to me like that's gonna happen. If someone wants to wish for the sentimental retention of a hometown favorite, I get that. As long as we recognize it for what it is, no harm in that, but it's not a smart baseball move. Well, wait, if we spot the Bucs a $200mil payroll, I guess it could work OK. Maybe we should start posting our theoretical payroll as well. Puts things in perspective.



Polonco is what he is now, and nothing more. Marte could improve in theory, but he won't suddenly develop a better understand the game he's dedicated himself to these past 20-odd years. The outfield never really turned into the incredible powerhouse I dreamed it would be. I admit, I had very high hopes indeed. Meadows is likely to be yet another high-potential underperformer, though he at least has a chance yet to prove me wrong.



Lastly, I'd like to leave a quick apology to JollyRoger. I think that signing Cutch to the contract you propose would be an incredibly bad baseball decision (given the total payroll they'd likely be willing to commit to), but I didn't need to be a jerk about it.

I'd offer McCutchen 4 years for $70 million.



He might not be the MVP anymore, but he can still be a fine piece on a competitive team.

3E353D3134352E6B6D1A233B3235357439355A0 wrote: I'd offer McCutchen 4 years for $70 million.



He might not be the MVP anymore, but he can still be a fine piece on a competitive team.
That is a good proposal to offer Cutch, but I doubt he would accept it. If he hits the market, I assume he will want to test the free agent waters in 2018. The way the free agent market has gone so far this offseason your proposal maybe what he gets next offseason.

050E060A0F0E155056211800090E0E4F020E610 wrote: I'd offer McCutchen 4 years for $70 million.



He might not be the MVP anymore, but he can still be a fine piece on a competitive team.


You say competitive team ... so why are we offering him that because we aren't going to be competitive.  That is too much term for me for a declining player. 



I have no interest seeing him back to be honest if this organization won't spend money on adding good components.

I am good with signing Cutch for 4 or 5 years at average of 18-20 per year. I am okay with trading Cole for good return. I am not sure about Frazier, and have been studying Yankee prospects. I think that the Pirates should keep Harrison unless we get Torres.Bill James had a great article several years ago about the fact that Ben Zobrist with his versatility was much more valuable than a one position player with the same WAR because a team could avoid replacement level player at several positions. Character counts. Cutch and Josh are gamers. We need more hardnosed players in the AJ Burnett mold.

506D606770766D30333A020 wrote: I am good with signing Cutch for 4 or 5 years at average  of 18-20 per year. I am okay with trading Cole for good return. I am not sure about Frazier, and have been studying Yankee prospects. I think that the Pirates should keep Harrison unless we get Torres.Bill James had a great article several years ago about the fact that Ben Zobrist with his versatility was much more valuable than a one position player with the same WAR because a team could avoid replacement level player at several positions. Character counts. Cutch and Josh are gamers. We need more hardnosed players in the AJ Burnett mold.
Exactly. Cutch is the face of the franchise. JHay is the heart and soul. Both are gamers. Trade Cole. The Yanks have the best prospects. Make sure we get Andujar, Adams, if we have to accept Frazier. Add to Cole if we need to

3133292F395C0 wrote: It doesn't make sense to you or me, perhaps, but unfortunately it makes sense to Mr. Nutting, and he's the one who gets to decide. I suspect NH has a budget of around 95MM to work with. Right now they are projected at about 100MM. If they trade Cutch they save 14MM. I would guess about 9MM of that would be available to sign free agents. A fourth outfielder and no doubt a clearance priced relief pitcher or two.


If it doesn't make sense to you or me, why are you arguing it? Be fans. Stop making cases for Bob Nutting and start making cases for the Pittsburgh Pirates as a baseball team.



We don't win anything by making Nuttings case for him in public. No prizes awarded.

042F232A2F2E7479400 wrote: I think Harrison would be extremely valuable to the Yankees. With the 2 young guys in the infield Harrison could spell them at any time and/or start until they are acclimated. He can also move to the OF. The best thing he is very good on defense no matter where you put him.


I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this.  I don't.  Again, curious as to what is his value.  I think if you are trading both, you send them in separate deals.


Yep. As I said earlier I would do the Cole for Frazier, Andujar and Adams trade right now. I have no idea what would be offered for JHay alone.
I was hoping for a Cole for Frazier, Adams, and Andujar. The Yanks might be hesitant to do that. I would hate to see JHay go. He is the heart and soul of the team. The clubhouse would suffer in my opinion. Instead I would try to make this a mega deal. Would the Yanks consider Cole, Rivero, and Freese for Frazier, Adams, Andujar, and Torres?


Why would the Yankees want Rivero?  They have Chapman.  Why would they want David Freese?  Truly a part-time guy who has a glove but not enought power or stamina to play 162 games. 



I've been on OBN since almost the beginning and I am afraid that you like me often over estimate the worth of the guys we think the Bucs should trade.  I sure hope that NH is looking elsewhere for deals for Cole, Harrison, Cutch and perhaps Rivero.  Make the Yankees squirm if that is possible.



I can't fault you for being a dreamer.  Who knows that dream might come true!




My thinking is Freese could bridge the gap until Machado is available. Rivero and Chapman gives the Yanks the most dominating bullpen in baseball. Also provides insurance either way in case of injury. Bucs keep JHay and his versatility. My dream aspect is that the Bucs sign Cutch for 4-5 years. They are getting 50 million extra this year. That 50M plus the savings from Cole and Freese would allow the Bucs to offer Cutch 4-5 years at 20M a year.

In summary the Bucs retool with Frazier, Adams, Andujar, Torres and would still be able to compete with most of the roster intact.




WHY?  WHY?  WHY?



Do you really think he's not on the downward slope of his career, with maybe one bounceback year left in him before he becomes a middle-of-the-road player?  Cutch is the archetype of the player we should NOT be paying $20 mil to for years at a time.  Why pay him 20% of the team's salary for 4-5 years?  If we're gonna spend ownership's money (and I'm all for that), let's not buy an albatross.






Well, we are not going to sign anyone with the 50 million so better Cutch gets it than an imaginary player.



Better yet, trade him and sign other good players with a future.    (Haha, I know funny right?)






I'd LIKE to argue with you about this, but I can't.  I keep hoping that eventually, after all these years, they will have knocked down their debts enough that ownership would be comfortable in reinvesting, but when we didn't get any heavy investments in the 2014 - 2016 teams, that showed they're never going to knock enough off that they feel comfortable in doing that. 



Still, if we're gonna do thought experiments and, "what would WE do", I think we could do better than propose spending $80-$100 Mil on Cutch at this point in his career.  We already have actual ownership making poor/no moves.  No need to do that in the hypothetical as well.



We've had these conversations on the board before, where we notice great or very good players who get paid large contracts just when they aren't really earning them any more.  Contracts like these are paying them for previous performance, not so much for the performance they'll be putting up during the big contract.  Nice for the player, but not the best value for the team.



And damn, I can NOT understand why Cutch dropped off.  Several years back, I'd have bet money on him putting up his all-star numbers into his mid 30's.  He seems to stay healthy and is in great shape, but it just doesn't seem to me like that's gonna happen.  If someone wants to wish for the sentimental retention of a hometown favorite, I get that.  As long as we recognize it for what it is, no harm in that, but it's not a smart baseball move.  Well, wait, if we spot the Bucs a $200mil payroll, I guess it could work OK.  Maybe we should start posting our theoretical payroll as well.  Puts things in perspective.



Polonco is what he is now, and nothing more.  Marte could improve in theory, but he won't suddenly develop a better understand the game he's dedicated himself to these past 20-odd years. The outfield never really turned into the incredible powerhouse I dreamed it would be.  I admit, I had very high hopes indeed.   Meadows is likely to be yet another high-potential underperformer, though he at least has a chance yet to prove me wrong. 



Lastly, I'd like to leave a quick apology to JollyRoger.  I think that signing Cutch to the contract you propose would be an incredibly bad baseball decision (given the total payroll they'd likely be willing to commit to), but I didn't need to be a jerk about it.




Your 200million payroll is a strawman the size of Texas.   You don't need a 200 million dollar payroll to pay Cutch 20 per year (the number you used).   You need around 108 million dollar payroll in 2018, all else being equal.



Don't fall into the trap of painting people disagreeing with you as "payroll doesn't matter" people.    Math is a stubborn thing.



108 million.  How dare these people be so unrealistic!  What are we going to do next? Sign Stanton?  If we aren't careful, we will end up over the luxury tax threshold...



I agree with everything else you said as well as resigning Cutch not being a good baseball move.   He's the kind of player we should be trading.   Hypothetical payrolls are probably good to establish for the sake of discussion. Mine is 120 million for 2018.



It's a very realistic number keeping us in the bottom 3rd of baseball. Particularly considering we are getting a 50 million lump sum revenue payment first quarter of 2018.

What I don't see from the Pirates is a plan. And without one, trading Cutch, Harrison and even Cole amounts to just a salary dump of what is already one of MLB's lowest payrolls. Will trades net prospects? Fine. Then what? Assuming the prospects become quality players, will additional quality players be obtained to fill remaining holes and make the Pirates contenders? That's what this regime has rarely done because it takes them out of their low payroll comfort zone. Or will those prospects be good players on a flawed team that dumpster dives to fill holes and ultimately be moved when their salaries become significantly larger than the minimum, again for more prospects? If there is no plan to build a winner, but only to trade the more expensive players for encouraging prospects and hope every player on the team does as good or better than expected, then the same fate awaits those prospects. And the team is no better off than if they hadn't traded their better--and more expensive--players. The only one better off is Nutting, who reduces his expenses.



So I don't get wrapped up in the trade discussions. Unless these potential trades are part of an actual plan to do what is necessary to build a legitimately competitive team, then none of it really matters anyway.