Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke

[WildwoodDave2]

396F796D627868636E794B6C666A626725680B0 wrote: After reading in the paper the negative, but, very truthful comments that were made about this JOKE of a team that we have, hopefully it even makes the national sports news. The RedSox announcers took care of that during last night’s game. This is basically the very same thing that I said when starting this, Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke. Trust me, the same negative comments from us will be exactly the same when giving our individual opinions. Thank goodness for college and pro football. At least we can cheer for Penn State, WVU, Pitt, and Steelers. As long as Nutting owns them, no improvements that will benefit this make up of future rosters will be coming. Just do your research on how Nutting operates his other endeavors, like Seven Springs and his news papers that he has purchased. All shoestring operations. Keep putting your money in Nutting’s pockets when you purchase tickets to games, and subscribing to networks that show mlb games. When the owners approved this last agreement with the players, with no base and max salary, in my opinion, it was over.


[highlight]It is truly on Nutting[/highlight], especially with the low payrolls of the past few years. Imagine we spent on one outfielder, a first baseman, and a starting pitcher in the offseason. I mean, legit, $10M to $15M/year type free agents. Even at that cost the payroll would hover around $100M.



Hayes

Reynolds

Free Agent Outfielder

Free Agent 1B

Cruz

Bae/Newman/Rodriguez/Pegeuro or whoever wins that battle

Suwinski

Nunez (DH)

Henry Davis (toward end of '23)



Rotation:

Free agent pitcher

Keller

Contreras

Priester

Burrows



That team would compete, IMO. [highlight]But the owner is impenetrable to giving a shit.[/highlight]




That's the crux of it.  There's little to no hope of fielding a competitive team, especially within the time frame Cherington has been here, without the owner giving his GM some help.  Who among us would be surprised to know that when BC interviewed, he explained to Nutting that building a roster through the draft was the best way to put together a winning team.  That would've been music to Nutting's ears:  a roster on the cheap for three to six years.  If it wins, great.  [highlight]If not, he pretends he's upset, fires the GM, and promises things will change with the new GM.  Then it's six more years of the same.  [/q[/highlight]uote]



You have outlined the long range plan.




Nutting fell into the perfect situation to employ that long range plan.  Imagine a business where the owner inhibits his managers from making the company reach its potential, and yet still earns considerable profits.  And where there's little incentive to improve or compete because your very competitors will help support you.  Why would he ever take on the risk that comes with trying to win?

[WildwoodDave2]

Having the MLB Package, I get to watch a lot of games. Good games. Mets vs. Yankees, Astros vs. Yankees, Mets vs. Braves

Dodgers vs. Cardinals etc. I look at their payrolls and that tells

the story. Really isn't anything else to say. Without a Floor, as Sonny Coroleon would say, "forget about it"

[WildwoodDave2]

1D23262E3D25252E0E2B3C2F784A0 wrote: After reading in the paper the negative, but, very truthful comments that were made about this JOKE of a team that we have, hopefully it even makes the national sports news. The RedSox announcers took care of that during last night’s game. This is basically the very same thing that I said when starting this, Hoping the Pirates are better next year! Joke. Trust me, the same negative comments from us will be exactly the same when giving our individual opinions. Thank goodness for college and pro football. At least we can cheer for Penn State, WVU, Pitt, and Steelers. As long as Nutting owns them, no improvements that will benefit this make up of future rosters will be coming. Just do your research on how Nutting operates his other endeavors, like Seven Springs and his news papers that he has purchased. All shoestring operations. Keep putting your money in Nutting’s pockets when you purchase tickets to games, and subscribing to networks that show mlb games. When the owners approved this last agreement with the players, with no base and max salary, in my opinion, it was over.


[highlight]It is truly on Nutting[/highlight], especially with the low payrolls of the past few years. Imagine we spent on one outfielder, a first baseman, and a starting pitcher in the offseason. I mean, legit, $10M to $15M/year type free agents. Even at that cost the payroll would hover around $100M.



Hayes

Reynolds

Free Agent Outfielder

Free Agent 1B

Cruz

Bae/Newman/Rodriguez/Pegeuro or whoever wins that battle

Suwinski

Nunez (DH)

Henry Davis (toward end of '23)



Rotation:

Free agent pitcher

Keller

Contreras

Priester

Burrows



That team would compete, IMO. [highlight]But the owner is impenetrable to giving a shit.[/highlight]




That's the crux of it.  There's little to no hope of fielding a competitive team, especially within the time frame Cherington has been here, without the owner giving his GM some help.  Who among us would be surprised to know that when BC interviewed, he explained to Nutting that building a roster through the draft was the best way to put together a winning team.  That would've been music to Nutting's ears:  a roster on the cheap for three to six years.  If it wins, great.  [highlight]If not, he pretends he's upset, fires the GM, and promises things will change with the new GM.  Then it's six more years of the same.  [/q[/highlight]uote]



You have outlined the long range plan.




Nutting fell into the perfect situation to employ that long range plan.  Imagine a business where the owner inhibits his managers from making the company reach its potential, and yet still earns considerable profits.  And where there's little incentive to improve or compete because your very competitors will help support you.  Why would he ever take on the risk that comes with trying to win?
Now you've done it. Your making Shedman look good

[GreenWeenie]

5D7C696058617A697C6D080 wrote: Unless BOB gave orders to Cherington to shed payroll immediately, then I would argue that Cherington is not without his own responsibilities.



He came in, thought he knew more than anyone, got rid of what little talent the team had, then (correctly) thought that he could sell the masses on The Future.



I think we now have the benefit of some hindsight here and I would say he got rid of talent a little quickly - and didn't get enough return in several trades. He absolutely did not get enough for Marte or Bell.



A good Cherington move was to bring in Vogelbach.  Got rid of him in under a year.



Vogelbach and Anderson (and Frazier for me, who seems to have found his feet again and is tearing it up for the Ms right now). Are we going to try to build a roster with anything but kids?



This is a collaborative effort, and I consider it short-sighted to disregard The Cherington Effect.  A good piece of this; probably the highest portion- is at his doorstep.



The rap on BC at Boston was he ignored the MLB roster while building the minors up. It was the next GM that meshed the youth with some veterans to create a WS winner. Obviously, Pittsburgh is a lot different (see complaints about the owner), but it seems he has done little to build anything but the minors ... and I think it can be questioned at this point how well he has done that so far.



I was interested in our new MLB top 30 prospect list:



https://www.mlb.com/pirates/news/pirate ... e-coverage



The dynamic that seems to be in play is that many of the upper prospects seem to be unable to hold their status and are slipping down the list a they rise through the minors. Obviously there are exceptions as Endy looks like a really good prospect and when the heck are we going to get Bae on the MLB roster and see how his speed plays? Priester seems to have held his own. But seriously, the book is still out on Davis and Gonsalez who have been injured a lot.



There are a lot of guys from the last two drafts who are high on the list and a long, long way from helping.




Good to communicate with you, UT.  I consider you- and, so many others here as passionate and very loyal fellow Pirates fans.  Without us, the club would have less of a following.



I go back to a point I've made before- we can't have things both ways.  Each of us needs to make our own call.  There's no right or wrong choice in this.



A) Accept that prior experienced players were let go, and that the brass deserves some amount of time to recover (and, hopefully improve)



Or



B) Don't accept that. 



No club can subtract talent and expect better results UNLESS UNLESS UNLESS.....the competition does even worse.  Look around.  That's very unlikely- if ever- to happen. 



Personally, I'm not the kind of person who counts on competitors to get worse.



Contrary to what one of my detractors has dreamed up, I've never expected the team to be good this year, and I have the proof to show him. 



I can't think of ANYone who has expected the Pirates to be on the same financial stand as the huge payroll teams.



But, I see absolutely no reason on earth why we can't expect the kind of roster that teams like the Cardinals and Brewers are given by their front offices.  Heck, Pittsburgh's not all that smaller than San Diego, FCOL.  San Diego doesn't have  an NHL team to support like Pittsburgh has....but, it has an NBA franchise.  That creates a "Sports Dollar Wash."



We kept hearing how unfair it is to compare franchises.  We've not been given an explanation.  We're asked to trust them and to be patient.  I can understand why some have bowed out.



I love baseball, and I love baseball at the highest (MLB) level.  I turned my back on this club for two months, and I felt a sense of relief.  I'll re-evaluate as we see the off-season decisions.  We can't go another off-season without at least more serious attempts to improve.  I don't know that definition.  I'll know it when I see it, though.  I'll know it if I don't, too.

[UtahPirate]

We are no doubt at a franchise low right now GW (again).



In starting to question BC, I feel like I'm kind of piling on. I hope that he has the right formula, that his system will create a winner. Just really worrying right now about it - like so many others. Always enjoy your posts and many others here. Best with how you handle this for the next little while.

[GreenWeenie]

Piling on? Gotta be kidding.



Teflon. Everyone points to BOB....to Shelton....to probably even the organist.



It's systematic, and he's tge head of baseball operations.



Boston had it correct. They had reasons. We need to bring someone in above him. He can choose to stay if he'd like. Just my opinion. I don't look for that.

[2drfischer@gmail.c]

The frustrations and anger coming forth in this thread are all legitimate and justified.  There are many reasons and people to blame for the situation this organization finds itself in, going back to 1993.  The League, the owners, free agency, managers, coaches, drafting, development, the CBA.  The negatives associated with any of those things all seem to fester here.



While I'll always place Nutting at the center of the problems here, I still keep coming back to one thing that bothers me the most.  It's not just a Pirates problem, it's league-wide, but our guys seem to take it to the extreme:  the lack of understanding of both game situations and the rules.  And for me, two things stand out as the cause.



First, the emphasis, over the past 20 years or so, on hitting for power from every player, regardless of position.  Has teaching players to hit for power taken away from instruction in how to play proper defense, to understand what's taking place on the field, and how to run the bases?  It must be true because we've seen a lot of bizarre things just here in Pittsburgh in the past couple of years that we'll never forget.



Second, a few years ago, we started seeing more showmanship on the field, stuff we'd never seen before.  A player rarely, if ever, showed up an opponent by flipping his bat, thumping his chest, or strolling around the bases with a personal style.  That all seemed to change and I didn't understand why.



Then I saw a video of a Winter Ball game where these sorts of expressions were normal.  It was a much more relaxed atmosphere, very little was at stake, and the emphasis seemed to be on entertainment.  The Latin players have brought this phenomenon to the major leagues.  For them it was how baseball is played. 



In 1960, 91% of MLB players were Americans while 9% came from the Caribbean.  By 2022, those numbers changed to 64% and 32%, a cultural change and influence that's hard to ignore as demonstrated by the number of American players joining in with the theatrics.  Being a showman, attracting attention to oneself, has taken on a great importance, perhaps at the expense of knowing the game.



It's to the point now for me that a player who understands the game is such a rarity that he really stands out among the others.  I focus most of my attention on those players during a game because I find them the most compelling.



I guess my point is that if the Pirates aren't going to spend on free agency, they better emphasize instruction from the first day forward, and don't allow players to advance until they have a satisfactory understanding of what's taking place on the field. It doesn't cost any more money to do so, something that the owner could surely get behind.



I firmly believe that the quality of talent in MLB today is equal to any other era.  There's an amazing number of gifted players who will become all-time greats for their physical skills.  But it seems that the overall baseball IQ isn't what it was in previous generations.  Baseball has always been a thinking man's game but there seem to be a lot fewer thinkers out there now.

[Bobster21]

752335212E34242F223507202A262E2B6924470 wrote: I firmly believe that the quality of talent in MLB today is equal to any other era.  There's an amazing number of gifted players who will become all-time greats for their physical skills.  But it seems that the overall baseball IQ isn't what it was in previous generations.  Baseball has always been a thinking man's game but there seem to be a lot fewer thinkers out there now.
I agree. I think players now skate through amateur ball, HS, and even college on physical skills alone. For the most part, players are bigger, stronger and faster than ever before. They aren't focused on learning the ins and outs of the game. They are focused on getting noticed and getting rich. The minimum salary for a first year player is over half a million dollars and self-promoting behavior gets players noticed. Amateur coaches don't want their star players to go elsewhere if bogged down with learning the non-physical parts of the game. This has produced a lot of players who are very gifted but addicted to self-promotion on the field--for some reason we no longer call this arrogance--and yet lack adequate baseball smarts.

[GreenWeenie]

The number of people playing the sport- who are elibible to compete at the MLB level- is far greater than in previous eras.



There are billions more people. If only a fraction of 1% play baseball, that means that more can be selected from.



In eras past, just about every player came from North America, then Central- or South American countries. Today, players come from the globe, and based from some more recent performance, some look like they might come from other universes. One manager does.



The talent today is equal to, if not improved upon from the past. The conditioning and nutrition programs of today's talent is far beyond what was seen only 20 to 30 years ago.



I'm not sure how development can be compared, but certainly there have been technological improvements in that.



The talent level's better. The implementation of it- probably up for debate.



Somehow, I think that "baseball smarts" were argued about since Abner Doubleday's time. Managers have always been dumb. Umpires have always been blind. Players have always "lacked basics" except when they won.

[DemDog]

Bump