OnlyBucs

544C4E49495E4F48555442270 wrote: Reading Cherington's remarks about how much he likes Shelton and what a great job he is doing makes me sick.  Statements like this just makes me convinced we have once again got a horrible GM.  Anyone who thinks Shelton is doing a great job is delusional barring on insanity.  I've seen enough of this guy he's had three years to start turning it around and as far as I can see the Pirates organization is worse off than the day he took over.  It's sooooo frustrating to think we have once again failed to choose a competent GM.   Such ridiculous statements are proof positive he needs to be gone along with his buddy Shelton.


What would you expect Cherington to say publicly about his employee?  Would you expect him to say the same things said about Shelton on this board?  Do you think that’s responsible?  Would you think it appropriate for your boss to point out your mistakes in a newspaper or on television?


I expect a thoughtful answer with some nuggets of reality.  If this is his reality, he needs to go along with Shelton.  I see failures in trades, draft picks, development of players, managers, as losses pile up with no end in site.  Simple, just give us the truth, it would do worlds of good for this team.  Some fans and most players would respond to the truth.  Misleading everyone is never the answer.


Imagine if BC spoke the truth about Shelton, that he lived in the reality you want.  How do you think the players would react?  Basically, they’d have license to ignore Shelton and his coaches the rest of the way.  While on the surface that might actually benefit them, there would be chaos on the field and in the locker room.



Imagine the effect it would have on acquiring future players.  Few free agents want to sign here to begin with.  After BC ripped his manager in public, no one would ever come here.  We know how sensitive they are now.  They’d might fear it would happen to them.



In addition, imagine how the Pirates marketing department would take the news of Shelton ripping the manager?  Ticket sales would crater even more than they have in the past few years. 



Not much good can come from having BC speak the words you want to hear.  We all know Shelton has failed.  We all know he needs to be fired.  Maybe BC has wanted to but Nutting has refused to allow it because he doesn’t want to pay two managers for the next 14 months.  With Nutting, that’s not so far fetched.



Shelton has proven he’s not capable of managing a game.  If this team turns good beginning next year, no way will BC want a bad manager ruining what he created.  When the team is good, Shelton will be gone.


So I've been trying to imagine how much worse it would be if Cherington flat out said he wasn't happy with Shelton's job.  There's comments he would loose control of this team, etc.  Well I'm pretty sure this team can't get any worse no matter how bad he criticized Shelton.  This team has hit rock bottom.  Fire Shelton now!  Fire Shelton now!




I’ve never been opposed to firing Shelton. My argument has always been that BC isn’t going to criticize him in the media. It just isn’t done.



And I disagree that the team can’t get worse. If the players saw the GM criticize their manager in the media or even behind closed doors, the team would fold even more so than it is now and, yes, that’s possible.

10080A0D0D1A0B0C111006630 wrote:

So I've been trying to imagine how much worse it would be if Cherington flat out said he wasn't happy with Shelton's job.  There's comments he would lose control of this team, etc.  Well I'm pretty sure this team can't get any worse no matter how bad he criticized Shelton.  This team has hit rock bottom.  Fire Shelton now!  Fire Shelton now!


I can't think of a scenario where a GM would say he wasn't happy with the job his manager was doing but then let him keep managing. When a GM is that unhappy with the manager, he just fires him. Shelton has done nothing to deserve another year and everything to be fired.

0F222F3E39283F7F7C4D0 wrote:

So I've been trying to imagine how much worse it would be if Cherington flat out said he wasn't happy with Shelton's job.  There's comments he would lose control of this team, etc.  Well I'm pretty sure this team can't get any worse no matter how bad he criticized Shelton.  This team has hit rock bottom.  Fire Shelton now!  Fire Shelton now!


I can't think of a scenario where a GM would say he wasn't happy with the job his manager was doing but then let him keep managing. When a GM is that unhappy with the manager, he just fires him. Shelton has done nothing to deserve another year and everything to be fired.


I can't think of any reason to keep him. He's still at this late date shuffling the lineup daily. Fire him put someone as interim why would anyone hang on to this sorry excuse for a manager. This team is a low as you can go.

4E565453534455524F4E583D0 wrote:

So I've been trying to imagine how much worse it would be if Cherington flat out said he wasn't happy with Shelton's job.  There's comments he would lose control of this team, etc.  Well I'm pretty sure this team can't get any worse no matter how bad he criticized Shelton.  This team has hit rock bottom.  Fire Shelton now!  Fire Shelton now!


I can't think of a scenario where a GM would say he wasn't happy with the job his manager was doing but then let him keep managing. When a GM is that unhappy with the manager, he just fires him. Shelton has done nothing to deserve another year and everything to be fired.


I can't think of any reason to keep him.   He's still at this late date shuffling the lineup daily.  Fire him put someone as interim why would anyone hang on to this sorry excuse for a manager.  This team is a low as you can go. 
I agree.

Shelton's tied to Cherington's hip.  Says more about Cherington than it does about Shelton.



Who are you going to get?  No one with a reputation's going to come- unless it's a bad reputation.



That leaves some other LMG OJT manager who's thrown to the wolves, with the same Hodgepodge of Nothingness, doing the same thing- which is to use 2023 as more spring training, holding two-week auditions.



Changing managers wouldn't even be lipstick.  It wouldn't even get the wheel to spin once.



Change general managers.  Get a guy or woman who is a better talent evaluator.  That would be doing something.



Shelton is the MLB equivalent of Brett Brown. The problem is- the Pirates aren't the MLB equivalent of the Sixers.

Last season it seemed the Pirates couldn't possibly get worse. They lost 101 games, had a team BA of .236 and scored an NL low 609 runs. This year they are 47-77 and have to go 15-23 to avoid losing 101 again. That means that after playing .379 ball so far they have to improve to play .395 ball the rest of the way.



Last year's sad .236 team BA is looking pretty good right now compared to the current .220. And after adding the DH this year, run production is even worse. They have scored an NL low 444 runs averaging 3.6 runs per game. To improve all the way up to last year's pathetic total of 609, they have to improve to average 4.3 runs per game the rest of the way. Improvement is not something this Cherington/Shelton team does well.

I must agree that the past several weeks have been very disappointing. I didn’t think they would lose 100 games this season, but now I am not sure. Some of Sheldon’s moves are very questionable, but since he has been here he has not had a lot of horses. More like broken down horses. I am probably in the minority, but I have faith in Ben Cherington. He has brought some strong baseball people to the organization such as John Baker, Dewey Robinson and Steve Sanders. I think one has to look at the entire organization to see if progress is being made. There are some young players at Indy and Altoona who should help the Major League Club over the next year or two. Rodriguez the young catcher seems to be one player for sure. BC does need Bob Nutting to expand the budget this offseason to bring in a couple pitchers and a bat or two. Maybe many feel I am dreaming, and for sure I am no baseball expert, but I think brighter days are coming.

1A2F3838330A38383334385D0 wrote: When you don't have much O to start with, then give that away....  it's common sense.



Thinking this team was going to score runs, I don't even know what to say.



And, that's just one aspect of the game.
I don't think it was a stretch to think that after adding a DH to the lineup they could at least match last season's league worst run total. And that total was affected by trading away Adam Frazier who was having an outstanding season (.324) was still finished 2nd on the team in runs scored despite being traded on July 26. So trading Vogelbach this year probably had less impact on the offense than trading Frazier last year

S. T. R. E. T. C. H

4F4342191019111C1B041E290 wrote: I must agree that the past several weeks have been very disappointing. I didn’t think they would lose 100 games this season, but now I am not sure. Some of Sheldon’s moves are very questionable, but since he has been here he has not had a lot of horses. More like broken down horses. I am probably in the minority, but I have faith in Ben Cherington. He has brought some strong baseball people to the organization such as John Baker, Dewey Robinson and Steve Sanders. I think one has to look at the entire organization to see if progress is being made. There are some young players at Indy and Altoona who should help the Major League Club over the next year or two. Rodriguez the young catcher seems to be one player for sure. BC does need Bob Nutting to expand the budget this offseason to bring in a couple pitchers and a bat or two. Maybe many feel I am dreaming, and for sure I am no baseball expert, but I think brighter days are coming.


I feel the organization, as a whole, is in much better hands with Cherington than with Huntington. There’s no denying the major league club has been awful in his time here, but that’s because little effort has gone into it. Almost all of the effort has gone into building the farm system because that’s the only way an organization owned by someone like Nutting is going to have a chance to succeed.



BC has had three drafts, one of them just a month ago. It’s going to take three years, at least, for the best of those players to work their way to Pittsburgh. I also believe that he’s not disappointed if the major league team has yet one more bad season in 2022 to assure another high pick in next year’s draft.



I believe that we’ll see more focus on building a better major league club in 2023. I think BC will be more active and aggressive in the free agent market over the winter (although that’s no guarantee of success) and then, on top of that, we’ll see better younger players arrive throughout the season. I feel like the team will be much improved next year as the roster will be populated by better players. The VanMeter-types will hopefully be a thing of the past.