Evaluating the salary dump aspect of the Liriano trade at this point is futile. Obviously, it's going to look bad. It seems pretty clear to me that they figured that they could reallocate more money for next year while dumping their worst pitcher this year. As a result, they make their current staff better (maybe) and certainly not worse. And they free up a ton of cash ($20mill?) for next year's payroll. It also cost them the two top prospects.
They should be judged next April to see what they did with that money. Andrew Cashner or a trade for a SP and backend bullpen guy is how that money needs to be reallocated.
Salary flexability
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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SammyKhalifa
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Salary flexability
6364727A7463242851767C70787D3F727E7C110 wrote: Not going to fight the "all in" "doesn't do what is necessary" fight in this thread because there isn't much point IMO, it's just bickering back and forth. Feel free yourselves though.
But, on the matter of where the payroll is going to go, I'll be interested in seeing what happens. You can assume that the budget next season (for good or bad) is ~100M give or take say 10%, while it seems to me that most of the roster is nailed down. The obvious place to begin is starting pitching, but I don't see anything in that starting pitching FA list I'm very interested in. I suppose there could be a surprise second base signing or something but I wouldn't count on that.
So what, then? Another INT lottery ticket? Trade? Long term contract talks with someone already on the roster? Again I don't see many on the roster that we would want long term that aren't already locked up except Cole, and LOL on that.
My thought is probably a trade for a SP. I don't know enough about another teams' situations to even make a guess as to who, but that seems right to me. I know some will say that Nutting will pocket the money and not do anything! but please for the love of god just get out of here with that. Something always happens even if we don't like it.
I don't understand your premise: either you spend money to make the team better or you don't. It's a valid question. Maybe Nutting's not cheap, maybe the Pirate's finances for some reason simply don't allow this FO to play the game at even the "small market" level - well that's relevant.
If the Pirates have almost built a WS team but can't add one decent pitcher (they didn't last season, let's hope they do this off season) then we're playing some sort of AAAA ball. That's as material a question as it can get.
Finally, all most of us really wanted was to at least use the money they claim to have. $110 million verses $97 actually allocated...Now millions more dropped from final payroll...
If this team was hopeless out of contention I would not be complaining.
PS - if the FA market is poor why didn't the Pirates trade for A guy like Matt Moore?? (Hint, could it be that they didn't want Moore's rather modest Contract for the next three years?)
Postscript - Jeff Locke gave up a four run lead last night, the bullpen gave up another dozen or so runs and instead of catching the Mets and pulling ever so close to the WC, the Rockies catch the Pirates (assuming they went on to win, haven't checked scores).
My only premise is that they're going to be putting payroll into SOMETHING going into next year, so what is it? Yeah my post was a bit stream-of-consciousness and hard to follow. However, even the biggest detractors would have to think that they'll move somewhere.
I'm not sure I would have done the Matt Moore deal if it involved one of the big two as I'm still on the bucco prospects train. That's part of what makes the Liriano "trade" so aggravating and bewildering though.
But, on the matter of where the payroll is going to go, I'll be interested in seeing what happens. You can assume that the budget next season (for good or bad) is ~100M give or take say 10%, while it seems to me that most of the roster is nailed down. The obvious place to begin is starting pitching, but I don't see anything in that starting pitching FA list I'm very interested in. I suppose there could be a surprise second base signing or something but I wouldn't count on that.
So what, then? Another INT lottery ticket? Trade? Long term contract talks with someone already on the roster? Again I don't see many on the roster that we would want long term that aren't already locked up except Cole, and LOL on that.
My thought is probably a trade for a SP. I don't know enough about another teams' situations to even make a guess as to who, but that seems right to me. I know some will say that Nutting will pocket the money and not do anything! but please for the love of god just get out of here with that. Something always happens even if we don't like it.
I don't understand your premise: either you spend money to make the team better or you don't. It's a valid question. Maybe Nutting's not cheap, maybe the Pirate's finances for some reason simply don't allow this FO to play the game at even the "small market" level - well that's relevant.
If the Pirates have almost built a WS team but can't add one decent pitcher (they didn't last season, let's hope they do this off season) then we're playing some sort of AAAA ball. That's as material a question as it can get.
Finally, all most of us really wanted was to at least use the money they claim to have. $110 million verses $97 actually allocated...Now millions more dropped from final payroll...
If this team was hopeless out of contention I would not be complaining.
PS - if the FA market is poor why didn't the Pirates trade for A guy like Matt Moore?? (Hint, could it be that they didn't want Moore's rather modest Contract for the next three years?)
Postscript - Jeff Locke gave up a four run lead last night, the bullpen gave up another dozen or so runs and instead of catching the Mets and pulling ever so close to the WC, the Rockies catch the Pirates (assuming they went on to win, haven't checked scores).
My only premise is that they're going to be putting payroll into SOMETHING going into next year, so what is it? Yeah my post was a bit stream-of-consciousness and hard to follow. However, even the biggest detractors would have to think that they'll move somewhere.
I'm not sure I would have done the Matt Moore deal if it involved one of the big two as I'm still on the bucco prospects train. That's part of what makes the Liriano "trade" so aggravating and bewildering though.
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SteadyFreddy
Salary flexability
292E38303E296E621B3C363A3237753834365B0 wrote: Not going to fight the "all in" "doesn't do what is necessary" fight in this thread because there isn't much point IMO, it's just bickering back and forth. Feel free yourselves though.
But, on the matter of where the payroll is going to go, I'll be interested in seeing what happens. You can assume that the budget next season (for good or bad) is ~100M give or take say 10%, while it seems to me that most of the roster is nailed down. The obvious place to begin is starting pitching, but I don't see anything in that starting pitching FA list I'm very interested in. I suppose there could be a surprise second base signing or something but I wouldn't count on that.
So what, then? Another INT lottery ticket? Trade? Long term contract talks with someone already on the roster? Again I don't see many on the roster that we would want long term that aren't already locked up except Cole, and LOL on that.
My thought is probably a trade for a SP. I don't know enough about another teams' situations to even make a guess as to who, but that seems right to me. I know some will say that Nutting will pocket the money and not do anything! but please for the love of god just get out of here with that. Something always happens even if we don't like it.
Postscript - Jeff Locke gave up a four run lead last night, the bullpen gave up another dozen or so runs and instead of catching the Mets and pulling ever so close to the WC, the Rockies catch the Pirates (assuming they went on to win, haven't checked scores).
Yes the Mets did lose and the Rockies did win so the Pirates and Rockies are currently tied in the standings and both 3 games back of a 2nd wildcard spot. This last week in both Milwaukee and Atlanta has been a complete and total disaster for the Pirates with their record now at 1-4 needing a win tonight to avoid finishing with a 1-5 record on this trip. Had the Pirates won two more games this week they would probably be 1 game out of a wildcard spot or better instead of continually staying at 3 or 4 games like they have been doing the last 2-3 weeks. This is what you get when you trust a guy like Jeff Locke to start a game yet again and you need to win and he cant hold a 4 run lead and then makes excuses about it after the game.
But, on the matter of where the payroll is going to go, I'll be interested in seeing what happens. You can assume that the budget next season (for good or bad) is ~100M give or take say 10%, while it seems to me that most of the roster is nailed down. The obvious place to begin is starting pitching, but I don't see anything in that starting pitching FA list I'm very interested in. I suppose there could be a surprise second base signing or something but I wouldn't count on that.
So what, then? Another INT lottery ticket? Trade? Long term contract talks with someone already on the roster? Again I don't see many on the roster that we would want long term that aren't already locked up except Cole, and LOL on that.
My thought is probably a trade for a SP. I don't know enough about another teams' situations to even make a guess as to who, but that seems right to me. I know some will say that Nutting will pocket the money and not do anything! but please for the love of god just get out of here with that. Something always happens even if we don't like it.
Postscript - Jeff Locke gave up a four run lead last night, the bullpen gave up another dozen or so runs and instead of catching the Mets and pulling ever so close to the WC, the Rockies catch the Pirates (assuming they went on to win, haven't checked scores).
Yes the Mets did lose and the Rockies did win so the Pirates and Rockies are currently tied in the standings and both 3 games back of a 2nd wildcard spot. This last week in both Milwaukee and Atlanta has been a complete and total disaster for the Pirates with their record now at 1-4 needing a win tonight to avoid finishing with a 1-5 record on this trip. Had the Pirates won two more games this week they would probably be 1 game out of a wildcard spot or better instead of continually staying at 3 or 4 games like they have been doing the last 2-3 weeks. This is what you get when you trust a guy like Jeff Locke to start a game yet again and you need to win and he cant hold a 4 run lead and then makes excuses about it after the game.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Salary flexability
To both PMike and Sammy - fair enough. We really can't judge their plan until next April. I'll be hoping like crazy on the offseason because this team can be elite. In the end my problem is two:
I can't wrap my head around the idea that prospects are now fair game to simply dump salary. That's bad news especially for a team that pretty much lives and dies with good use of prospects. (I.e., no real FA by the Pirates; are we going to use more prospects if Cutch is bad next season?)
And #2, I can't believe they didn't try to make reasonable moves for THIS season. there is no way I quit on this year given the very real opportunity. Which leads back to the 1st point of dumping salary at literally unheard of costs: the only way I can reconcile the moves made for THIS team is to realize they gave up on this year in order to save money (the root of all the "nutting is cheap" talk is that saving money is more important than winning; you might not like to admit it, but that sure looks like exactly what happened).
One last point - the Pirates did not dump there worse pitcher; Frankie has upside that Locke can only dream about. They moved Locke back into the rotation....they did not try to make the team better they simply moved payroll. (And ice mentioned above that I don't have a problem with dumping....unless it's "hidden" behind a lot of BS).
I can't wrap my head around the idea that prospects are now fair game to simply dump salary. That's bad news especially for a team that pretty much lives and dies with good use of prospects. (I.e., no real FA by the Pirates; are we going to use more prospects if Cutch is bad next season?)
And #2, I can't believe they didn't try to make reasonable moves for THIS season. there is no way I quit on this year given the very real opportunity. Which leads back to the 1st point of dumping salary at literally unheard of costs: the only way I can reconcile the moves made for THIS team is to realize they gave up on this year in order to save money (the root of all the "nutting is cheap" talk is that saving money is more important than winning; you might not like to admit it, but that sure looks like exactly what happened).
One last point - the Pirates did not dump there worse pitcher; Frankie has upside that Locke can only dream about. They moved Locke back into the rotation....they did not try to make the team better they simply moved payroll. (And ice mentioned above that I don't have a problem with dumping....unless it's "hidden" behind a lot of BS).
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SammyKhalifa
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Salary flexability
VA--I don't disagree with any of that, esp the Liriano trade. I would have gambled on him making a comeback for next year. I just think we're running out of useful ways to talk about it, and there ARE other facets. That all said they're going to moving on to something else and I'm wondering what that is.
Salary flexability
2A2D3B333D2A6D61183F35393134763B3735580 wrote: To both PMike and Sammy - fair enough. We really can't judge their plan until next April. I'll be hoping like crazy on the offseason because this team can be elite. In the end my problem is two:
I can't wrap my head around the idea that prospects are now fair game to simply dump salary. That's bad news especially for a team that pretty much lives and dies with good use of prospects. (I.e., no real FA by the Pirates; are we going to use more prospects if Cutch is bad next season?)
And #2, I can't believe they didn't try to make reasonable moves for THIS season. there is no way I quit on this year given the very real opportunity. Which leads back to the 1st point of dumping salary at literally unheard of costs: the only way I can reconcile the moves made for THIS team is to realize they gave up on this year in order to save money (the root of all the "nutting is cheap" talk is that saving money is more important than winning; you might not like to admit it, but that sure looks like exactly what happened).
One last point - the Pirates did not dump there worse pitcher; Frankie has upside that Locke can only dream about. They moved Locke back into the rotation....they did not try to make the team better they simply moved payroll. (And ice mentioned above that I don't have a problem with dumping....unless it's "hidden" behind a lot of BS).
It is still too early to say that last year's plan was a failure?
I can't wrap my head around the idea that prospects are now fair game to simply dump salary. That's bad news especially for a team that pretty much lives and dies with good use of prospects. (I.e., no real FA by the Pirates; are we going to use more prospects if Cutch is bad next season?)
And #2, I can't believe they didn't try to make reasonable moves for THIS season. there is no way I quit on this year given the very real opportunity. Which leads back to the 1st point of dumping salary at literally unheard of costs: the only way I can reconcile the moves made for THIS team is to realize they gave up on this year in order to save money (the root of all the "nutting is cheap" talk is that saving money is more important than winning; you might not like to admit it, but that sure looks like exactly what happened).
One last point - the Pirates did not dump there worse pitcher; Frankie has upside that Locke can only dream about. They moved Locke back into the rotation....they did not try to make the team better they simply moved payroll. (And ice mentioned above that I don't have a problem with dumping....unless it's "hidden" behind a lot of BS).
It is still too early to say that last year's plan was a failure?
Salary flexability
7D4F43435765464F4247484F2E0 wrote: VA--I don't disagree with any of that, esp the Liriano trade. I would have gambled on him making a comeback for next year. I just think we're running out of useful ways to talk about it, and there ARE other facets. That all said they're going to moving on to something else and I'm wondering what that is.
I certainly agree with this. I think they should have kept him. Someone else pointed out that Liriano has one the comeback player of the year...TWICE! This is his pattern. The odds are good he could have a good year next year. There had to be some attitude issues.
VA - Liriano is far more talented than Locke. However, Liriano have been evenly bad. They are about a wash in ERA. Obviously, Locke has a better winning percentage (FWIW). IMO, Liriano has been worse because of the walks. It's one thing for guys to get on base on their own. It's another thing to put them on voluntarily.
I certainly agree with this. I think they should have kept him. Someone else pointed out that Liriano has one the comeback player of the year...TWICE! This is his pattern. The odds are good he could have a good year next year. There had to be some attitude issues.
VA - Liriano is far more talented than Locke. However, Liriano have been evenly bad. They are about a wash in ERA. Obviously, Locke has a better winning percentage (FWIW). IMO, Liriano has been worse because of the walks. It's one thing for guys to get on base on their own. It's another thing to put them on voluntarily.
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Bobster21
Salary flexability
When the Pirates were losing for 20 straight years, key players rarely signed extensions (unless it a ridiculous deal like Kendall's) and free agents ignored them. Since the Pirates became legit contenders, key players have agreed to extensions. Say what you will about Liriano, but he re-signed as a FA last year when he could have gone elsewhere. So after the surrender of prospects to fuel a salary dump, the Pirates better use their money wisely to remain legit contenders next year. Because they have sent a message not only to frustrated fans but also to players that they will gladly sacrifice talent for savings. If players get frustrated with the efforts of the FO to take the necessary steps to go to the next level, we'll go back to seeing FAs ignore the Pirates and good young players counting the years until they can leave.
Salary flexability
45787F65787F110 wrote: I'm sure you're right Dog that the Pirates view the money saved on Morton's contract to have been used on Polanco and Cervelli (and maybe some others I'm not thinking of). The frustrating thing is that keeping Polanco and Cervelli is something any MLB team should do just to maintain their competitive level. It amounts to the fixed cost of doing business in the world of major league baseball. Financial 'flexibility' should be about addressing those things that are not fixed costs. It should be about taking your franchise to a higher competitive level.
If all the Pirates are willing to do is address fixed costs as a franchise then we're not ever going to see a day when they'll add the 'big piece' they need to make that push to a World Series Championship.
Exactly. They never will. Once you figure this out, it gets easier.
But, what they will do and have proven they will do, is compete while not having to do. A complete rebuild after finishing fifth every freakin' season.
Unfortunately my hope for the Pirates will continue to be that they win a championship, not that they just continue to be 'somewhat competitive' in perpetuity.
First off, I apologize if my comments over the last week have come off snarky or condescending. Sometimes the writing comes off without inflection or hand gestures or whatever.
If The OB board was at a bar having a beer, our conversations would mild arguments with no hurt feelings... Or this is how I see it.
As for the Bucs being "somewhat competitive" in purpetuity, I'm cool with this because you can win it all like this. Baseball is really the only sport where the best two teams don't usually win.
You get to the playoffs and hope you get hot. See 2014, 2013, 2011. The Central had the best two teams in baseball last season and didn't sniff the NLCS.
Being competitive means you are always in the hunt.
If feel if we tear it down again, it will be exponentially harder to ever win over 90 games again. Keeping a steady flow of prospects coming will always keep us in it.
First off Tintin no apology necessary as far as I'm concerned. I know you're as passionate about the Pirates as I am. I also agree that I don't want to see them have to ever go into a rebuild mode and a steady level of competitiveness is preferable to that.
What really ticked me off was the hypocrisy of giving away prospects in the Liriano and Nova deals. The basis for that continued competitiveness for any small market team (as you've stated) is building from within and developing prospects for your own team or as trading chips to fill areas of need. What Huntington did there was lose prospects in order to dump salary. That isn't going 'all in' and it's also counterproductive to maintaining a reasonable level of competitiveness going forward.
If all the Pirates are willing to do is address fixed costs as a franchise then we're not ever going to see a day when they'll add the 'big piece' they need to make that push to a World Series Championship.
Exactly. They never will. Once you figure this out, it gets easier.
But, what they will do and have proven they will do, is compete while not having to do. A complete rebuild after finishing fifth every freakin' season.
Unfortunately my hope for the Pirates will continue to be that they win a championship, not that they just continue to be 'somewhat competitive' in perpetuity.
First off, I apologize if my comments over the last week have come off snarky or condescending. Sometimes the writing comes off without inflection or hand gestures or whatever.
If The OB board was at a bar having a beer, our conversations would mild arguments with no hurt feelings... Or this is how I see it.
As for the Bucs being "somewhat competitive" in purpetuity, I'm cool with this because you can win it all like this. Baseball is really the only sport where the best two teams don't usually win.
You get to the playoffs and hope you get hot. See 2014, 2013, 2011. The Central had the best two teams in baseball last season and didn't sniff the NLCS.
Being competitive means you are always in the hunt.
If feel if we tear it down again, it will be exponentially harder to ever win over 90 games again. Keeping a steady flow of prospects coming will always keep us in it.
First off Tintin no apology necessary as far as I'm concerned. I know you're as passionate about the Pirates as I am. I also agree that I don't want to see them have to ever go into a rebuild mode and a steady level of competitiveness is preferable to that.
What really ticked me off was the hypocrisy of giving away prospects in the Liriano and Nova deals. The basis for that continued competitiveness for any small market team (as you've stated) is building from within and developing prospects for your own team or as trading chips to fill areas of need. What Huntington did there was lose prospects in order to dump salary. That isn't going 'all in' and it's also counterproductive to maintaining a reasonable level of competitiveness going forward.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Salary flexability
4C616C7D7A6B7C3C3F0E0 wrote: When the Pirates were losing for 20 straight years, key players rarely signed extensions (unless it a ridiculous deal like Kendall's) and free agents ignored them. Since the Pirates became legit contenders, key players have agreed to extensions. Say what you will about Liriano, but he re-signed as a FA last year when he could have gone elsewhere. So after the surrender of prospects to fuel a salary dump, the Pirates better use their money wisely to remain legit contenders next year. Because they have sent a message not only to frustrated fans but also to players that they will gladly sacrifice talent for savings. If players get frustrated with the efforts of the FO to take the necessary steps to go to the next level, we'll go back to seeing FAs ignore the Pirates and good young players counting the years until they can leave.
Yeah, this is one of the longer term repercussions I was referring to in the other thread of blowing off the season when you should still be trying to compete. Everyone wants a ring. Nobody wants to play for a team that quits. If I'm a player looking for a home, I only choose the Pirates only if they are very clearly giving me the best deal I can get.
Yeah, this is one of the longer term repercussions I was referring to in the other thread of blowing off the season when you should still be trying to compete. Everyone wants a ring. Nobody wants to play for a team that quits. If I'm a player looking for a home, I only choose the Pirates only if they are very clearly giving me the best deal I can get.