OnlyBucs

2328202C2928337670073E262F2828692428470 wrote: They took a chance on the Rotation.  It was a weird strategy.  Did they really think Niese was going to be that bad.  He wasn't worse or much worse than Morton coming in.  The same with Vogelsong.  I wonder what would have happened if Vogelsong was in the rotation the whole time?  Vogelsong wasn't worse than Morton either.  Burnett wasn't replaced by either guy.  Nicasio failed as a starter but had a nice season before to think he could do it.  Happ was replaced by Nova.  Nova has done just as well as Happ since they had the same time period.  Then the call up of Taillon to complete the rotation.  That was the plan. (I can't explain Locke over Vogelsong for most of the season)



What failed was Liriano and Cole, to an extent.  Liriano was awful.  Just awful.  He went from the staff ace to not belonging in the majors.  Cole didn't repeat or improve, kind of rare for a guy of his caliber. 



They just need one guy to show up in Niese, Vogelsong (not really given a chance) and Nicasio.  None did.  Liriano failed.  Cole was average or just a little above.  Taillon couldn't save the whole rotation.



I would have loved to sign a veteran to a nice deal.  Happ doing so well for the Blue Jays makes everything look worse too.  Did people really expect him to be a Cy Young candidate?



I hope they learned their lesson.  They need to replace Liriano still as he was part of the 2017 plan.  Cole, Liriano replacement, Taillon, two young guys could be a solid rotation.  Then you have the Glasnow call up at mid-season.




To me, you can't say Happ was replaced by Nova.  So, we replaced Happ in August with Nova, five months AFTER the season started?  Can't use that one.



You and I have a totally different definition of solid rotation. We are facing Cole and Taillon which could be good. Then nothing short of questions 3-5. Sorry, I can't get excited seeing Brault, Hutchinson, Kuhl as 3-5 with a Glasnow callup late in the season. That Liriano replacement you speak of won't be anything significant because they won't make the nice trade to acquire a good starter or won't foot the bill in free agency. Resigning Nova could give a good 1-3. However, I have zero faith in the FO to do it. It's not in their DNA.

They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year. No doubt. If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure.



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well. It is hard to deny not trying to sign him. He is much younger than Happ. I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age. That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet.

3F343C3035342F6A6C1B223A3334347538345B0 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.

517561696C000 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in? Let's start being realistic. Who are actual possibilities?

6F7256545A3F0 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in?  Let's start being realistic.  Who are actual possibilities?


As important as who to get, is what are you willing to give up?

To get that kind of pitcher, you have to deal 2 MLB players and at least 1 really good prospect.

That's the part I would struggle with. You can't get a solid #2 for just minor league guys.

Personally, I think this is setting up for the Pirates to make a blockbuster deal. We have 4 legitimate outfielders (including Meadows) and need a top of the rotation starter. I'm hoping they have the balls to trade McCutchen, but I'm afraid it's going to be Meadows.

74694D4F41240 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in?  Let's start being realistic.  Who are actual possibilities?




Of course what is realistic has to do with both teams involved. At this point I don't know what other teams might be interested in, but a few pitchers I think the Pirates should enquire about would include Archer (TBR), Quintana (CHW), and Carrasco (CLE). All three of those teams would seem to have a need for an upgrade at one or more outfield positions, and that would match nicely with the Pirates trading from strength there.

5470646C69050 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in?  Let's start being realistic.  Who are actual possibilities?




Of course what is realistic has to do with both teams involved. At this point I don't know what other teams might be interested in, but a few pitchers I think the Pirates should enquire about would include Archer (TBR), Quintana (CHW), and Carrasco (CLE). All three of those teams would seem to have a need for an upgrade at one or more outfield positions, and that would match nicely with the Pirates trading from strength there.




Quail, one challenge Bucs will have is that they basically "gave away" two prospects that could have been used to build a big trade in Ramierz and McGuire to Toronto. I am dying to know what TOR demanded to take Francisco or did we just offer these guys? Hearne may be the reason but he is still a bit of distance away.



Bigger question for me is how far along will all of our young pitching be opening day and how many (Crumpton, Kingham for example) are part of the team or part of a trade?

7256424A4F230 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in?  Let's start being realistic.  Who are actual possibilities?




Of course what is realistic has to do with both teams involved. At this point I don't know what other teams might be interested in, but a few pitchers I think the Pirates should enquire about would include Archer (TBR), Quintana (CHW), and Carrasco (CLE). All three of those teams would seem to have a need for an upgrade at one or more outfield positions, and that would match nicely with the Pirates trading from strength there.




Thanks for actually stating some legit names. Too many people clamor for trades without having any realistic idea of who we should acquire or what we'd have to give up.



I think Archer is legit and a trade low guy. I'm not enamored with Quintana. Plus, he had a really great year. I'd rather go after Rodon from them. He's young and at the spot in his career where pitchers sometimes break out. Lefty too. I don't Cleveland is going to trade any of their pitchers now. Only if Marte or Polanco were on the table. They are ready to win now.

405D797B75100 wrote: They did sign Burnett and Liriano, but not in their DNA?



That piece will be key for next year.  No doubt.  If they don't bring in a solid, proven starter, they are in trouble for sure. 



I am not sure if I want Nova back, but he sure has pitched well.  It is hard to deny not trying to sign him.  He is much younger than Happ.  I didn't expect Happ to be this good (did anyone) based on previous years and age.  That could still turn out to be a bad contract down the road (Liriano), but we don't know yet. 


Quite frankly my biggest concern for this offseason is the Pirates not bringing in an established quality #2 type starter. I'm not talking about signing Nova. Considering the depressingly mediocre upcoming class of free agent starting pitchers Nova would be at the top of that list, but he's not a #2 quality starter.



They'll have to make a trade to get that kind of quality. They have the trade chips to do it, but they'll likely have to either give up McCutchen to clear salary in the deal or lose their obsession with 'financial flexibility' and actually have a payroll more in line with their revenue ranking of 18th in MLB.



The Pirates can set themselves up to turn things around next year by signing Nova and acquiring that #2 type starter. They have the young talent to fill out the rest of the rotation nicely and provide depth there as well. Anything less than this kind of restructuring of their starting pitching will be just another long shot, fingers crossed kind of year, and we're seeing just how well that kind of strategy has worked in 2016.




Who should they bring in?  Let's start being realistic.  Who are actual possibilities?




Of course what is realistic has to do with both teams involved. At this point I don't know what other teams might be interested in, but a few pitchers I think the Pirates should enquire about would include Archer (TBR), Quintana (CHW), and Carrasco (CLE). All three of those teams would seem to have a need for an upgrade at one or more outfield positions, and that would match nicely with the Pirates trading from strength there.




Thanks for actually stating some legit names.  Too many people clamor for trades without having any realistic idea of who we should acquire or what we'd have to give up.



I think Archer is legit and a trade low guy.  I'm not enamored with Quintana.  Plus, he had a really great year.  I'd rather go after Rodon from them.  He's young and at the spot in his career where pitchers sometimes break out.  Lefty too.  I don't Cleveland is going to trade any of their pitchers now.  Only if Marte or Polanco were on the table.  They are ready to win now.


I'm not interested so much in Rodon. He's a young guy with nice potential but our system has lots of talent like that. For this particular piece I want an established pitcher with a good pedigree. But it's gonna cost the Bucs serious MLB talent (and not just prospects) to get it done.



I think any of the three I mentioned would be a terrific add. I do think that Cleveland is the team most likely to make a deal because of their need going forward for an outfielder. At 35, Rajai Davis is their starting center fielder and is no great shakes. I think any of our 3 starting outfielders as a centerpiece to the deal get us Carrasco. I suspect Cleveland would prefer Marte or Polanco to Cutch because of salary and age, but I'd try to sell Cutch first. To give credit here, MaineBucs has been pitching this deal (or similar) for Carrasco for a while now. I think he's onto something.