58535B575253480D0B7C455D545353125F533C0 wrote: They are WINNING. They are being COMPETITIVE.
No, they are not. Not this year. They have lost more than they've won and have never made a serious run despite the teams ahead of them in the WC hunt not being that far ahead.
58535B575253480D0B7C455D545353125F533C0 wrote: But people want them to spend more just to spend more. It will look like they care.
The Cervelli signing is a good example. He gave them a price, the Pirates said No. The Pirates gave him a price, Cervelli said Yes. They got him cheaper. But they are being cheap, not smart, right?
Fans appreciate that the Pirates built a strong core. Fans don't want to see money spent foolishly just to spend it. But they do want to see a willingness to move just a little more above the bottom feeders in MLB in terms of payroll instead of assembling the weak starting rotation they began this year with after a 98-win season in 2015.
58535B575253480D0B7C455D545353125F533C0 wrote: The team is built. Marte is signed, McCutchen is signed, Polanco is signed, Harrison is signed, Kang is signed, Cervelli is signed. All those guys are locked up. But they are now "team friendly" deals and they get ripped on for that? Really? But if they gave Marte $70 million for the same amount of years, people would have been happier because they spent money? I don't get that thought process. Players agree to these deals and the Pirates are being cheap. They didn't have to sign them. The Pirates didn't have to offer them either.
Such bad business by getting players cheaper and winning and being competitive at the same time. Crazy thought process.
No one is ripping them for signing players to team friendly contracts. What we are ripping is your explanation that signing players to team friendly contract proves they aren't hesitant to spend, which then proves the Liriano trade was not a salary dump even tho NH admitted that the salary dump was indeed part of the motivation in that deal. I think the Pirates have demonstrated that they want to be as competitive as possible within the confines of one of MLB's smallest payrolls. They did a good job the past 3 years but always fell short. This year, they were never a contender for the division and were always on the outside looking in at the WC race because they played .500 ball all season. And, sadly, a team that builds from within sacrificed 2 of its best prospects to avoid paying the salary extension given Liriano despite what was already a very low payroll by MLB standards.
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
Liriano. Always about Liriano.
He sucked. He was awful. He was moved.
You think McGuire and Ramirez are good and top prospects. That doesn't mean the Pirates do and they are well blocked for many years.
Need starting pitching, got starting pitching. Not good enough. Its not good enough because you don't think Hutchison was worth the two prospects in return. But we don't know that outcome of that trade yet. But it is always brought up.
Yes, they needed starting pitching. They lost two guys. People wanted Morton gone. Once he was gone, it was a "salary dump". Not sure how much value Morton had. Obviosly, teams weren't banging on the door for him.
They brought in Vogelsong and Nicasio and Niese. They didn't pan out. It happens. But they spent money on those three guys. Not good enough because they failed.
One year, they are down and out of the playoffs. Even though we know the real reason (Cole, Liriano, Cevelli, Kang, Harrison, McCutchen, Niese) as players didn't perform. But we will blame it on Vogelsong, Nicasio and Jaso. They didn't spend enough for those guys or anyone else.
He sucked. He was awful. He was moved.
You think McGuire and Ramirez are good and top prospects. That doesn't mean the Pirates do and they are well blocked for many years.
Need starting pitching, got starting pitching. Not good enough. Its not good enough because you don't think Hutchison was worth the two prospects in return. But we don't know that outcome of that trade yet. But it is always brought up.
Yes, they needed starting pitching. They lost two guys. People wanted Morton gone. Once he was gone, it was a "salary dump". Not sure how much value Morton had. Obviosly, teams weren't banging on the door for him.
They brought in Vogelsong and Nicasio and Niese. They didn't pan out. It happens. But they spent money on those three guys. Not good enough because they failed.
One year, they are down and out of the playoffs. Even though we know the real reason (Cole, Liriano, Cevelli, Kang, Harrison, McCutchen, Niese) as players didn't perform. But we will blame it on Vogelsong, Nicasio and Jaso. They didn't spend enough for those guys or anyone else.
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
565D55595C5D460305724B535A5D5D1C515D320 wrote: They are WINNING. They are being COMPETITIVE.
But people want them to spend more just to spend more. It will look like they care.
The Cervelli signing is a good example. He gave them a price, the Pirates said No. The Pirates gave him a price, Cervelli said Yes. They got him cheaper. But they are being cheap, not smart, right?
The team is built. Marte is signed, McCutchen is signed, Polanco is signed, Harrison is signed, Kang is signed, Cervelli is signed. All those guys are locked up. But they are now "team friendly" deals and they get ripped on for that? Really? But if they gave Marte $70 million for the same amount of years, people would have been happier because they spent money? I don't get that thought process. Players agree to these deals and the Pirates are being cheap. They didn't have to sign them. The Pirates didn't have to offer them either.
Such bad business by getting players cheaper and winning and being competitive at the same time. Crazy thought process.
Dog, can you name any team in baseball that is trying less than the Pirates to win?
I think similar examples can be found for every team in baseball.
the question I and many people have is if the Pirates are going to build on their core to put together a team to win the division.
For several years the Pirates have denied there is a window to compete, that they are building an organization to compete for "championships" year in and year out.
But people want them to spend more just to spend more. It will look like they care.
The Cervelli signing is a good example. He gave them a price, the Pirates said No. The Pirates gave him a price, Cervelli said Yes. They got him cheaper. But they are being cheap, not smart, right?
The team is built. Marte is signed, McCutchen is signed, Polanco is signed, Harrison is signed, Kang is signed, Cervelli is signed. All those guys are locked up. But they are now "team friendly" deals and they get ripped on for that? Really? But if they gave Marte $70 million for the same amount of years, people would have been happier because they spent money? I don't get that thought process. Players agree to these deals and the Pirates are being cheap. They didn't have to sign them. The Pirates didn't have to offer them either.
Such bad business by getting players cheaper and winning and being competitive at the same time. Crazy thought process.
Dog, can you name any team in baseball that is trying less than the Pirates to win?
I think similar examples can be found for every team in baseball.
the question I and many people have is if the Pirates are going to build on their core to put together a team to win the division.
For several years the Pirates have denied there is a window to compete, that they are building an organization to compete for "championships" year in and year out.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
They fell two games short of winning the Division last year. They have added many players from other organizations.
Just because they fell short doesn't mean they don't care. They added the second most (Toronto) payroll to the team at the trade deadline last year. Why add any more payroll if you just want to pocket the money? Sounds kind of silly to me.
Just because they fell short doesn't mean they don't care. They added the second most (Toronto) payroll to the team at the trade deadline last year. Why add any more payroll if you just want to pocket the money? Sounds kind of silly to me.
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
5259515D5859420701764F575E5959185559360 wrote: They fell two games short of winning the Division last year. They have added many players from other organizations.
Just because they fell short doesn't mean they don't care. They added the second most (Toronto) payroll to the team at the trade deadline last year. Why add any more payroll if you just want to pocket the money? Sounds kind of silly to me.
If the Pirates were committed primarily to winning and not to making a profit why did they not sign David Price last offseason as I suggested on this forum? He was a player they had enquired about obtaining at the trade deadline the previous year. They liked David Price.
I wanted them to add Price because I felt he was the one player that would be as close to a sure bet to significantly improve and stabilize their starting rotation which was about to suffer the losses of Burnett and Happ. If they had made this one move in addition to the others that NH did make they'd be looking at a 4th straight year in the playoffs. All they had to do was spend some money. Instead we got Jon Niese.
And speaking of money, as it turns out if they'd have signed him to the same deal that Boston did the Pirates' payroll right now would be $134M which would place them 17th in MLB. Right in line with spending for a team who ranks 18th in revenue and 9th in operating income. In my mind David Price would have been the perfect piece they needed to build on a 98 win season. They didn't have to give up prospects to acquire him but they had to spend money up to the level of what their revenue indicates they can clearly afford.
This offseason will not give the Pirates an opportunity to acquire a free agent of the pedigree of David Price. There aren't any starting pitcher free agents with close to that kind of talent. So the Pirates missed the opportunity to add a 'prime of his career' ace to their staff that would have given them equal footing with any team in a playoff situation for years to come. Instead of adding value to their roster they decided to add value to their bottom line. Winning is not where this franchise has its focus. It's merely a fortuitous by-product of owning a professional sports franchise.
Just because they fell short doesn't mean they don't care. They added the second most (Toronto) payroll to the team at the trade deadline last year. Why add any more payroll if you just want to pocket the money? Sounds kind of silly to me.
If the Pirates were committed primarily to winning and not to making a profit why did they not sign David Price last offseason as I suggested on this forum? He was a player they had enquired about obtaining at the trade deadline the previous year. They liked David Price.
I wanted them to add Price because I felt he was the one player that would be as close to a sure bet to significantly improve and stabilize their starting rotation which was about to suffer the losses of Burnett and Happ. If they had made this one move in addition to the others that NH did make they'd be looking at a 4th straight year in the playoffs. All they had to do was spend some money. Instead we got Jon Niese.
And speaking of money, as it turns out if they'd have signed him to the same deal that Boston did the Pirates' payroll right now would be $134M which would place them 17th in MLB. Right in line with spending for a team who ranks 18th in revenue and 9th in operating income. In my mind David Price would have been the perfect piece they needed to build on a 98 win season. They didn't have to give up prospects to acquire him but they had to spend money up to the level of what their revenue indicates they can clearly afford.
This offseason will not give the Pirates an opportunity to acquire a free agent of the pedigree of David Price. There aren't any starting pitcher free agents with close to that kind of talent. So the Pirates missed the opportunity to add a 'prime of his career' ace to their staff that would have given them equal footing with any team in a playoff situation for years to come. Instead of adding value to their roster they decided to add value to their bottom line. Winning is not where this franchise has its focus. It's merely a fortuitous by-product of owning a professional sports franchise.
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DemDog
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
I sit here with a terrible back pain and try to think clearly. Have been reading about and thinking about the Liriano deal. Did NH get snookered? Or did he come out smelling like a rose in the minds of the owners?
Fact is that the team wanted to get rid of the big contract ;D ;D left with Liriano since he was stinking up the joint and they felt they had some kids who could step in a replace him at a lot less money.
So the work a deal with the Jays. But the Jays don't want to eat all of Liriano's salary. They are taking a big risk with him not knowing if he will regain the success he had the last few years with the Bucs. So in order to offset that salary and the embarrassment of a big salary guy stinking up the joint in Toront too the Jays snookered NH into giving up two pretty good prospects who I may opinion really had a slim chance of making it to MLB with the Pirates. NH got Hutchinson in return and his giving the fans a ton of B-S about wanting him badly to be in their rotation.
I am sorry Neal I don't buy your B-S. You got snookered, maybe the two kids you traded could have been used to get someone who could almost guaranteed to help the team in 2017. I would feel better if Neal would just fess up and admit he got snookered. That is not a real bother to me. Most all guys in Neal's position make some big mistakes in their careers so just fess up Neal and learn from the snookering and move on.
Fact is that the team wanted to get rid of the big contract ;D ;D left with Liriano since he was stinking up the joint and they felt they had some kids who could step in a replace him at a lot less money.
So the work a deal with the Jays. But the Jays don't want to eat all of Liriano's salary. They are taking a big risk with him not knowing if he will regain the success he had the last few years with the Bucs. So in order to offset that salary and the embarrassment of a big salary guy stinking up the joint in Toront too the Jays snookered NH into giving up two pretty good prospects who I may opinion really had a slim chance of making it to MLB with the Pirates. NH got Hutchinson in return and his giving the fans a ton of B-S about wanting him badly to be in their rotation.
I am sorry Neal I don't buy your B-S. You got snookered, maybe the two kids you traded could have been used to get someone who could almost guaranteed to help the team in 2017. I would feel better if Neal would just fess up and admit he got snookered. That is not a real bother to me. Most all guys in Neal's position make some big mistakes in their careers so just fess up Neal and learn from the snookering and move on.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
I don't know why the Pirates didn't sign David Price. Did Price want to come to Pittsburgh? Maybe Price said No? I am sure every team wanted Price.
You blame Huntington for not signing certain guys when they sign elsewhere? Man, that is a stretch. I was told on this board that every 1B was available last year but Huntington was stupid for keeping Alvarez and Hurdle was stupid for playing him when they could have had Goldschmidt. That was a stretch too.
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen. When he said " that was part of it" he could have meant the three for one deal. Not that two prospects went so Liriano could go. Liriano was a top pitcher for three years straight too. He could have been answering that part of the trade. But everyone is twisting it to look like that in order for the Blue Jays to take Liriano, the Pirates had to trade McGuire and Ramirez in the process. It is twisted that way because the Management team is not liked. The results of that trade aren't even in yet and people are still saying how bad it was? Ramirez and McGuire might never make it? Hutchison might be a great starter. We just don't know.
Make fun of Walker for Niese. The results are in. The Pirates lost. That makes more sense than twisting a theory around with no end results.
You blame Huntington for not signing certain guys when they sign elsewhere? Man, that is a stretch. I was told on this board that every 1B was available last year but Huntington was stupid for keeping Alvarez and Hurdle was stupid for playing him when they could have had Goldschmidt. That was a stretch too.
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen. When he said " that was part of it" he could have meant the three for one deal. Not that two prospects went so Liriano could go. Liriano was a top pitcher for three years straight too. He could have been answering that part of the trade. But everyone is twisting it to look like that in order for the Blue Jays to take Liriano, the Pirates had to trade McGuire and Ramirez in the process. It is twisted that way because the Management team is not liked. The results of that trade aren't even in yet and people are still saying how bad it was? Ramirez and McGuire might never make it? Hutchison might be a great starter. We just don't know.
Make fun of Walker for Niese. The results are in. The Pirates lost. That makes more sense than twisting a theory around with no end results.
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Bobster21
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
7F5E567F545C3B0 wrote: I sit here with a terrible back pain and try to think clearly. Have been reading about and thinking about the Liriano deal. Did NH get snookered? Or did he come out smelling like a rose in the minds of the owners?
Fact is that the team wanted to get rid of the big contract ;D ;D left with Liriano since he was stinking up the joint and they felt they had some kids who could step in a replace him at a lot less money.
So the work a deal with the Jays. But the Jays don't want to eat all of Liriano's salary. They are taking a big risk with him not knowing if he will regain the success he had the last few years with the Bucs. So in order to offset that salary and the embarrassment of a big salary guy stinking up the joint in Toront too the Jays snookered NH into giving up two pretty good prospects who I may opinion really had a slim chance of making it to MLB with the Pirates. NH got Hutchinson in return and his giving the fans a ton of B-S about wanting him badly to be in their rotation.
I am sorry Neal I don't buy your B-S. You got snookered, maybe the two kids you traded could have been used to get someone who could almost guaranteed to help the team in 2017. I would feel better if Neal would just fess up and admit he got snookered. That is not a real bother to me. Most all guys in Neal's position make some big mistakes in their careers so just fess up Neal and learn from the snookering and move on.
Possum, I agree with your assessment other than NH getting snookered. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Liriano stunk and he wanted to unload him. That's fine. Considering that Liriano did stink, it would have been reasonable for the Bucs to pay part of his contract next year. Instead of doing that, they gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects. From Toronto's POV, it was essentially Liriano and 2 prospects in exchange for paying Liriano's contract. But both teams had to pass it off as a real trade so Toronto gave up a pitcher they wouldn't miss-Hutchison. And NH had to try to sell the deal to Pirate fans as a legit deal to acquire a "quality pitcher" even tho nothing in Hutchison's resume suggests he is that.
Fact is that the team wanted to get rid of the big contract ;D ;D left with Liriano since he was stinking up the joint and they felt they had some kids who could step in a replace him at a lot less money.
So the work a deal with the Jays. But the Jays don't want to eat all of Liriano's salary. They are taking a big risk with him not knowing if he will regain the success he had the last few years with the Bucs. So in order to offset that salary and the embarrassment of a big salary guy stinking up the joint in Toront too the Jays snookered NH into giving up two pretty good prospects who I may opinion really had a slim chance of making it to MLB with the Pirates. NH got Hutchinson in return and his giving the fans a ton of B-S about wanting him badly to be in their rotation.
I am sorry Neal I don't buy your B-S. You got snookered, maybe the two kids you traded could have been used to get someone who could almost guaranteed to help the team in 2017. I would feel better if Neal would just fess up and admit he got snookered. That is not a real bother to me. Most all guys in Neal's position make some big mistakes in their careers so just fess up Neal and learn from the snookering and move on.
Possum, I agree with your assessment other than NH getting snookered. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Liriano stunk and he wanted to unload him. That's fine. Considering that Liriano did stink, it would have been reasonable for the Bucs to pay part of his contract next year. Instead of doing that, they gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects. From Toronto's POV, it was essentially Liriano and 2 prospects in exchange for paying Liriano's contract. But both teams had to pass it off as a real trade so Toronto gave up a pitcher they wouldn't miss-Hutchison. And NH had to try to sell the deal to Pirate fans as a legit deal to acquire a "quality pitcher" even tho nothing in Hutchison's resume suggests he is that.
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Bobster21
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
7D767E7277766D282E596078717676377A76190 wrote:
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen.
According to Toronto's GM, they wanted Liriano. he was not a throw in.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/01/ja ... -bolsinger
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen.
According to Toronto's GM, they wanted Liriano. he was not a throw in.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/01/ja ... -bolsinger
Glasnow needs more time in Minors
654845545342551516270 wrote:
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen.
According to Toronto's GM, they wanted Liriano. he was not a throw in.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/01/ja ... -bolsinger
and Liriano pitched 43 innings for Toronto this season. For a deadline type deal with team in contention the
Pirates made a deal with Toronto that did nothing for team this season other than remove Liriano from the staff.
Huntington's reasoning could have been if that you want those two prospects for Hutchison, you have to take Liriano too. Liriano could have been a throw in to make the deal happen.
According to Toronto's GM, they wanted Liriano. he was not a throw in.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/01/ja ... -bolsinger
and Liriano pitched 43 innings for Toronto this season. For a deadline type deal with team in contention the
Pirates made a deal with Toronto that did nothing for team this season other than remove Liriano from the staff.