OnlyBucs

4C6B7A7E7B66596D7A7B7B661F0 wrote:



The Pirates didn't make it though that is my point. They haven't even won a playoff series since 1979. They are one of 3 current teams in Major League Baseball that have not made the World Series and won a pennant since 1979 which is 38 years ago. You can keep being satisfied though with making the playoffs and losing right away and never trying to improve to take the next step which the Pirates management clearly does not want to do. Getting to the playoffs is a great accomplishment no doubt but I'm not satisfied with just getting there I want the Pirates to win when tutu get there and in the 3 years they did get there they didn't win anything of significance. No playoff series wins, no pennant wins, and no World Series wins. Those are the 3 things that matter most when you get in the playoffs in order to take the next steps to go to the World Series and the Pirates have done NONE of this.




But the argument is that that once you get to the playoffs that it's basically a coin flip.  It's not exactly true but close.  Unless you think the Mets were a better team than us the year they went to the world series while we won 98 games and beat them head-to-head six games out of six. 



I'd say the results of the 162 game season were more indicative of who the better team was, over who won a postseason tournament where three bad games can mean you're out.



Of course you want to go to the WS.  But there's only so much you can do with the roster to help your chances once you get there. 



What "steps" would you have made in 2013 to make us win one more game against the Cardinals?  I think it's harder to say than do (or to predict the future).

01333F3F2B193A333E3B3433520 wrote:



The Pirates didn't make it though that is my point. They haven't even won a playoff series since 1979. They are one of 3 current teams in Major League Baseball that have not made the World Series and won a pennant since 1979 which is 38 years ago. You can keep being satisfied though with making the playoffs and losing right away and never trying to improve to take the next step which the Pirates management clearly does not want to do. Getting to the playoffs is a great accomplishment no doubt but I'm not satisfied with just getting there I want the Pirates to win when tutu get there and in the 3 years they did get there they didn't win anything of significance. No playoff series wins, no pennant wins, and no World Series wins. Those are the 3 things that matter most when you get in the playoffs in order to take the next steps to go to the World Series and the Pirates have done NONE of this.




But the argument is that that once you get to the playoffs that it's basically a coin flip.  It's not exactly true but close.  Unless you think the Mets were a better team than us the year they went to the world series while we won 98 games and beat them head-to-head six games out of six. 



I'd say the results of the 162 game season were more indicative of who the better team was, over who won a postseason tournament where three bad games can mean you're out.



Of course you want to go to the WS.  But there's only so much you can do with the roster to help your chances once you get there. 



What "steps" would you have made in 2013 to make us win one more game against the Cardinals?  I think it's harder to say than do (or to predict the future).

The Pirates should have closed out the series in 4 games at home that series is what I would have liked them to do but they didn't get it done. They ran into Wacha and Wainwright in game 4 and 5 who better then them.

Yeah, it was frustrating. I guess what I was getting at is that at some point there's only so much a GM can do to advance in the playoffs.



What you're saying about this year and Marte for the playoffs, I agree with what you're saying. Knowing he won't be there on the slim chance we make the postseason changes everything.

Since Marte is out for the playoffs, shouldn't mean they should pack it in and not try to get there.



Like you pointed out (as did I), lesser teams have made it to the World Series. You have to make it to the playoffs first.



If was Huntington, I would be trying my hardest to find an outfielder right now. Or find a 1B and move Bell. I just don't know who is available this early in the season. No team will trade a significant piece right now.



What minor leaguers are better than what the Pirates have already? The Pirates have a top outfield. Other teams minor leaguers aren't beating out lesser outfielders. I just don't know, but Huntington and his scouts should have a better idea than any fan.

Yeah I don't know what to do either. Even if the suspension had happened in the offseason we'd be better off. Feel like we're damned either way TBH.

5B5C4A424C5B1C10694E44484045074A4644290 wrote: Didn't Josh Harrison use to play good defense?  Didn't Polanco look like he was going to be a superstar?  Wasn't Reece McGuire the catcher of the future and Cutch a potential Hall of Famer?



Who would have thought that Adam Frazier going to the DL would create a crisis in the lineup?



What's going on here!  I can only imagine what Neil is wrestling with.  I thought I would throw out some fairly obvious and in some cases pretty big/critical questions that any GM would be facing right now.  What would be the best course of action for the Pirates (add your own questions or issues):



1) Do you keep Hanson on the roster or let him walk?  We can pretty much assume he has minimal trade value.  Can he be packaged part of a bigger trade?  Maybe he has a future and this year is toast anyway so he is given the opportunity to mature into a Big Leaguer?



2) What to do with Bastrado and his contract?  One thing we know for sure, his contract is material in the Pirates' universe.  The Pirates can't afford to just let him walk.  Package him with a couple lower level prospects and give him away, maybe keeping half the salary?



3)  What to do with Cutch?  I think he's much better this year, and playing very hard.  But he's got a very limited shelf life with his current contract.  Hold on to trade deadline?  Trade now?  Sign him to another team friendly contract (a possibility now)?



4) what to do with 2017?  If anything, the NL Central looks tougher than ever.  Even the Reds and Brewers look like much better teams.  Do we have a legitimate shot at a playoff, and if not what should the team's response be?



5) Does Marte have any trade value now?  Do you keep a player that was stupid enough to get caught and is one more failed test from missing a year?



6) The rotation looks like there is tremendous potential for a pretty long time.  How best to build a team around this rotation?  This is the biggest Q for me -  I want that rotation to have a chance to win a 100 games; what's the best way to make that possible?



Just a few of the questions I imagine Neil is losing sleep over.


1. To me, Hanson doesn't really serve as a long term solution for the Bucs in any fashion, as a starter or a quality bench player. I'd sell.



2. Doing the Niese for Bastardo deal was dumb to begin with. Now, we can't send him packing because the Bucs won't release him due to his contract and he isn't pitching well, so he has little trade value. Probably have to hold onto him; hope he recovers and the first sense of recovery, deal him.



3. I would trade Cutch now. Heck, I would have dealt him to Washington for the same package Chicago got for Eaton. Except, the Bucs wanted Robles too which was too much. I think Cutch has more value to someone now then at the trade deadline.



4. We don't have a legit shot at the playoffs. Not a chance. I think you have to really sit and think who are the core players moving forward and start to unload some non core players. I consider Bell core now; Polanco too ; Taillon and Rivero. There is little chance Cole will resign here, so I'd consider moving him for a ransom. Cole isn't Sale, but you could get a very nice return.



5. Marte's value is at an all time low now ... now that he got caught with PEDs. To me, moving forward, he isn't core. However, you have to hope he comes back and performs well. He doesn't have trade value. Right now, trading for Marte is a dangerous move.



6. The days of 100 wins won't happen anytime soon. We have three capable starters ... Cole, Taillon and Nova. Kuhn is a major ??? and we don't have a fifth starter that is good right now. Glasnow is a major ??? still.

Somewhere here we talked about trading major pieces that might bring us some unique up and coming as well as established talent.



That though brings me back almost 58years when my Bucs led by GM Joe L. Brown totally disappointed me as a 10 yr old. They traded away my favorite Pirate and the team's best player one Frank Thomas. Thomas was a power hitting 3B/LF who had led the Bucs in HR and RBIs in 1958. Along with Thomas the Bucs parted with minor RHP Whammy Douglas, Johnny Powers a LH hitting OF/PH who hit below the Mendoza Line before it was the Mendoza Line and right handed OF/3B/PH Jim Pendelton to the Cincinnati Redlegs for uh 3 guys who would help the Bucs make history. Don "The Tiger" Hoak a righty swinging 3B who earned his nickname because of his toughness, lefty swinging catcher/PH named Forrest Harrill Burgess aka "Smoky". A great pinch hitter who could get out of bed, come to bat and get a hit Bob Prince used to say. Finally there was a little "Kitten" obtained in LHP Harvey Haddix. Called the "Kitten" because of his resemblance to and his great fielding ability to a similar guy Harry "The Cat" Breechen.



Haddix is most known for his 12 perfect inning game against the Braves on 5/26/59. The game was decided in the 13th inning on a Joe Adcock double. Braves win 1-0. The Bucs were shutout despite racking up 12 hits. The Box Score



All three guys were instrumental in the Bucs winning the WS in 1960. In fact Haddix was the winner of game 7 after Maz's HR.



I look back to those simpler days when being a baseball fan was fun. You rooted for your team and cheered when they won and cried and moaned when they lost but you never ever quit rooting for them and going to games.



Now adays with all the tech involved in not just baseball but all sports it has become more of a pain to watch a game on tv and even at the park. I could go on about those two things but I wont because I love the game and the Pirates. I hope that some of you younger guys can take a break from all the stats and just sit back and relax and watch a great game and a bunch of guys who get paid lots of money to "play" and most of who are giving it all they got to win.



For me the dream that I have would to be able to go back to my child hood and sit in the stands at Forbes Field with my dad keeping score in the official scorebook, eating popcorn and having fun with dad and the Bucs.

Some early thoughts at each position. First we will be sellers at the trade deadline (no surprise there).



1) I agree we need a stop gap outfielder who can play good defense. I wouldn't overpay for him though. We only need him for the remainder of this year. Not sure who that would be. Why doesn't Angel Pagan not want to play in 2017? He would be a good fit on a one year deal ($3 - $4 million). Maybe he doesn't want to play for a non-contender? Leave Cutch in CF until he is traded this summer. Move Polanco back to RF where he is most familiar. Osuna, Frazier and new OF in left.



2) Hope like heck that Meadows can start hitting so he can be brought up when Cutch is traded this summer. He can hit 250 and learn on the job (like Cutch did his first year or two). Don't bring him up before his added free agent service clock is passed regardless.



3) Leave Bell at first base...give him 75% of the starts and stop replacing him for defense (he has to learn how to swim on defense in late innings). Back up with Osuna.



4) Make Frazier the starter at 2b at leave him there for the most part. Shop Harrison around to the league. Will probably have to package him with someone else of value to move his contract.



5) Mercer stays at SS. Use Hanson as backup at SS and 2b. If you don't use Hanson anymore than Hurdle is now, go ahead and release him. What a waste! Promote Newman to Indy and get him ready to replace Mercer in 2018 sometime.



6) Freeze stays at third, backed up by Jung Ho when he returns (after all star break if we are lucky. Speaking up JHG, if he is not back and productive by the end of the year....release his behind. Eat the contract if need be. His trade value is shot.



7) Cervelli stays as starter at C. Move on from Stewart and bring up Diaz to back up. Diaz should probably catch for Glasnow as he is probably the only catch who has a chance to moderately stop the opponents running game. Stewart is gone after this year anyways (another sunk cost).



8) Gosselin...to the minors to get his hitting back. Jaso, go ahead and release at all-star break (another sunk cost who will not be back next year).



9) Staring Pitchers....stick with the kids, Tallion, Kuhl and Glasnow. Nova is a lock also. Consider bringing up Eppler, Brault or Holmes in about 6 weeks when......Cole is traded for the best offer. Garret Cole is are best trade piece. He can still bring a top 50 hitting prospect. Not sure what position should be prioritized, but I would think 3b or an OF. Cole will never reach superstar status with the Pirates. He will only get more expensive, blow out his arm or start getting even more disgruntled with a rebuilding team. Time to get serious about moving Cole....like McCutcheon.



10) Bring up the young guns and go with them. Add to Rivero, and most anyone not named Watson....Listen to offers for Watson by the way. Too expensive and not a true closer.



11)....finally Hurdle and his coaches need to go now. This team needs new blood, someone fiery who will hold veterans accountable for lazy play and bad hitting and defensive approaches. Maybe Searge needs to go also, but the only working is our pitching staff. Not sure if he gets credit for that though.





I'm beyond frustrated as you can see. I don't see 75 wins this year. Last place at current pace (Reds and Brewers trending up and we are not).

Well said, Possum. I remember those days and those players. I didn't live near the stadium so for me there is also Bob

Prince, who took the time to explain to me (and everyone else listening) the difference between the hit and run and the run and hit. Baseball was different then, for sure.

7A4949544C495E593B0 wrote: Some early thoughts at each position.  First we will be sellers at the trade deadline (no surprise there). 



1)  I agree we need a stop gap outfielder who can play good defense.  I wouldn't overpay for him though.  We only need him for the remainder of this year.  Not sure who that would be.  Why doesn't Angel Pagan not want to play in 2017?  He would be a good fit on a one year deal ($3 - $4 million).  Maybe he doesn't want to play for a non-contender?  Leave Cutch in CF until he is traded this summer.  Move Polanco back to RF where he is most familiar.  Osuna, Frazier and new OF in left.



2) Hope like heck that Meadows can start hitting so he can be brought up when Cutch is traded this summer.  He can hit 250 and learn on the job (like Cutch did his first year or two).  Don't bring him up before his added free agent service clock is passed regardless.



3) Leave Bell at first base...give him 75% of the starts and stop replacing him for defense (he has to learn how to swim on defense in late innings).  Back up with Osuna.



4) Make Frazier the starter at 2b at leave him there for the most part.  Shop Harrison around to the league.  Will probably have to package him with someone else of value to move his contract.



5) Mercer stays at SS.  Use Hanson as backup at SS and 2b.  If you don't use Hanson anymore than Hurdle is now, go ahead and release him.  What a waste!  Promote Newman to Indy and get him ready to replace Mercer in 2018 sometime.



6) Freeze stays at third, backed up by Jung Ho when he returns (after all star break if we are lucky.  Speaking up JHG, if he is not back and productive by the end of the year....release his behind.  Eat the contract if need be.  His trade value is shot.



7) Cervelli stays as starter at C.  Move on from Stewart and bring up Diaz to back up.  Diaz should probably catch for Glasnow as he is probably the only catch who has a chance to moderately stop the opponents running game.  Stewart is gone after this year anyways (another sunk cost).



8) Gosselin...to the minors to get his hitting back.  Jaso, go ahead and release at all-star break (another sunk cost who will not be back next year).



9) Staring Pitchers....stick with the kids, Tallion, Kuhl and Glasnow.  Nova is a lock also.  Consider bringing up Eppler, Brault or Holmes in about 6 weeks when......Cole is traded for the best offer.  Garret Cole is are best trade piece.  He can still bring a top 50 hitting prospect.  Not sure what position should be prioritized, but I would think 3b or an OF.  Cole will never reach superstar status with the Pirates.  He will only get more expensive, blow out his arm or start getting even more disgruntled with a rebuilding team.  Time to get serious about moving Cole....like McCutcheon.



10) Bring up the young guns and go with them.  Add to Rivero, and most anyone not named Watson....Listen to offers for Watson by the way.  Too expensive and not a true closer.



11)....finally Hurdle and his coaches need to go now.  This team needs new blood, someone fiery who will hold veterans accountable for lazy play and bad hitting and defensive approaches.  Maybe Searge needs to go also, but the  only working is our pitching staff.  Not sure if he gets credit for that though.





I'm beyond frustrated as you can see.  I don't see 75 wins this year.  Last place at current pace (Reds and Brewers trending up and we are not).


I would rather see Osuna at first. He is more of a first baseman than Bell. Certainly better defensively. I agree with pretty much everything else on here except can Hurdle. This roster wasn't made to be in the play-offs coming out of ST. Now with Marte out, it certainly isn't. Management didn't do enough in the offseason to make this team better, so we are blaming the manager?