585D4A590F7E7D3C0 wrote: The point is that Friday night was a special case. It is rare that you have 3 (excellent) lefthanded hitters due up late in a close game. That is why Hurdle used Rivero in the 8th. Chapman, one of the best in the game, has been used like this many times. It's ok to play the matchups in a no-brainer situation. The dumb thing would be to say "this is my closer, he's pitching the 9th. Let's have Nicasio try to shut down 3 lefty hitters in the 8th."
If that was a "special case" I would agree 100% with you.. as it in concept makes perfect sense. My problem is that Hurdle has said he will use the closer according to match ups.
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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steve49
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
230E03121504135350610 wrote: The closer concept only works well when you also have a strong setup man. It's great to have a closer who slams the door in the 9th. But if you don't have the strong set up guy, the closer gets fewer leads to save and often sits idle in the pen watching the other relievers blow the game in an earlier inning. In those cases, managers can either blindly follow the formula and accept losing games in the 7th or 8th in order to keep the closer fresh for the 9th in those games where the lead hasn't gotten away. Or they can use the closer more liberally and try to make sure there is still a lead by the 9th even if that means using another pitcher for that inning. That seems to be the situation hurdle finds himself in. For a guy who usually adheres strictly to formulas, I'm glad he's thinking outside the box. I don't care what other teams do. Some don't have the right personnel for the closer concept but do it anyway. That's not good managing.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
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SteadyFreddy
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: More and more I'm finding Joe Block annoying. Sometimes it's his attempts at humor. Sometimes it's just the inflection in his voice that suggests he's just talking to hear himself talk. Sometimes it's his forced efforts to draw Walk or Blass into a conversation by asking them questions in which the answer is obvious. Yea he isn't very good. Too many times he tries to be funny or try to look or sound smart and he ends up looking and sounding like an idiot. Not a big fan of his at all so far through almost 2 years of listening to him. The Pirates could have gotten somebody better in my opinion to replace Tim Neverett then Block out of the possible 200 people they looked at.
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SteadyFreddy
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
Unless the Pirates make a comeback today in this game it looks like the poor game management in Friday night's game is going to cost them winning 2 of 3 this series. And we are starting to get to a point now in the season where the Pirates can't afford to give games and series away which is what they did in my opinion by how they used the bullpen on Friday night.
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SteadyFreddy
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
Time to maybe consider letting Wade Leblanc go as well in this bullpen. He stinks everytime he comes in especially in games that are within 2-3 runs the game usually ends up getting out of reach. I've seen enough of him personally.
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SteadyFreddy
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
This game is currently 6-1 now and probably a done deal. This is why Friday's game sucks even more now and why you manage to win the game you are playing on that day and not the game being played on Saturday or Sunday or two months down the road. Rivero isn't gonna be used anyway today and you're getting blown out today. But I guess according to some Rivero's arm was going to break or fall off if he threw 25-30 pitches Friday instead of 20 then another 17 on Saturday night.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
2C2B3A293A6B665F0 wrote: The closer concept only works well when you also have a strong setup man. It's great to have a closer who slams the door in the 9th. But if you don't have the strong set up guy, the closer gets fewer leads to save and often sits idle in the pen watching the other relievers blow the game in an earlier inning. In those cases, managers can either blindly follow the formula and accept losing games in the 7th or 8th in order to keep the closer fresh for the 9th in those games where the lead hasn't gotten away. Or they can use the closer more liberally and try to make sure there is still a lead by the 9th even if that means using another pitcher for that inning. That seems to be the situation hurdle finds himself in. For a guy who usually adheres strictly to formulas, I'm glad he's thinking outside the box. I don't care what other teams do. Some don't have the right personnel for the closer concept but do it anyway. That's not good managing.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Agree that having Rivero get 5 outs per outing is a bad idea and will assure he will not be good very long. I'm not so sure this team is not very good. It's hard to tell as bad as Hurdle has been at using his players. We could be in 1st place if he hadn't absolutely given away 5 games or more. I don't think we have a shot this year at this point as we are so many games under .500, not that many games out but 7 games under 500 can't be made up at this point in the season.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Agree that having Rivero get 5 outs per outing is a bad idea and will assure he will not be good very long. I'm not so sure this team is not very good. It's hard to tell as bad as Hurdle has been at using his players. We could be in 1st place if he hadn't absolutely given away 5 games or more. I don't think we have a shot this year at this point as we are so many games under .500, not that many games out but 7 games under 500 can't be made up at this point in the season.
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Bobster21
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
33342536257479400 wrote: The closer concept only works well when you also have a strong setup man. It's great to have a closer who slams the door in the 9th. But if you don't have the strong set up guy, the closer gets fewer leads to save and often sits idle in the pen watching the other relievers blow the game in an earlier inning. In those cases, managers can either blindly follow the formula and accept losing games in the 7th or 8th in order to keep the closer fresh for the 9th in those games where the lead hasn't gotten away. Or they can use the closer more liberally and try to make sure there is still a lead by the 9th even if that means using another pitcher for that inning. That seems to be the situation hurdle finds himself in. For a guy who usually adheres strictly to formulas, I'm glad he's thinking outside the box. I don't care what other teams do. Some don't have the right personnel for the closer concept but do it anyway. That's not good managing.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Was I unclear? Isn't this whole discussion about the traditional use of the closer vs the way Hurdle said he wanted to use Rivero? Since Hurdle's comments seemed to go against the standard philosophy I call that "thinking outside the box." I cannot imagine why you take exception to that.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Was I unclear? Isn't this whole discussion about the traditional use of the closer vs the way Hurdle said he wanted to use Rivero? Since Hurdle's comments seemed to go against the standard philosophy I call that "thinking outside the box." I cannot imagine why you take exception to that.
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
time for Cubbie bullpen to implode.
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steve49
June 17th. I really don't like Arrieta.
614C41505746511112230 wrote: The closer concept only works well when you also have a strong setup man. It's great to have a closer who slams the door in the 9th. But if you don't have the strong set up guy, the closer gets fewer leads to save and often sits idle in the pen watching the other relievers blow the game in an earlier inning. In those cases, managers can either blindly follow the formula and accept losing games in the 7th or 8th in order to keep the closer fresh for the 9th in those games where the lead hasn't gotten away. Or they can use the closer more liberally and try to make sure there is still a lead by the 9th even if that means using another pitcher for that inning. That seems to be the situation hurdle finds himself in. For a guy who usually adheres strictly to formulas, I'm glad he's thinking outside the box. I don't care what other teams do. Some don't have the right personnel for the closer concept but do it anyway. That's not good managing.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Was I unclear? Isn't this whole discussion about the traditional use of the closer vs the way Hurdle said he wanted to use Rivero? Since Hurdle's comments seemed to go against the standard philosophy I call that "thinking outside the box." I cannot imagine why you take exception to that.
Not taking exception to that and no , you were not unclear.Just saying that IMO , this is not really new or innovating thinking. It's been used , thought about and tinkered with a lot. No big deal, just a little difference on how to interpret "thinking outside the box." Managers to me seem like they are intact "going back " to more of a role for the BP aces. For instance Terry Francona , country to what Dog thought , used Miller in the following ... in 2016 he had 26 appearances.. finished 7 games with 3 saves. 2017 in 30 games he has finished 2 with ZERO saves. But I do understand fully that if you get blown up in the 8th , the game is over. Just disagree a little on the best way to get to the 9th.
It's really not thinking "outside the box" to say if your BP get's their butt blown apart in the 7th and 8th inning , you are going to lose a lot of ballgames. It's pretty elementary . Hopefully you don't think me and around the 30 managers that seem to adhere to a specified closer are not capable of that thinking. It's really not outside the box or advanced thinking. That said , you next decide how you win more ballgames. I think it's going by the standard "formula" the rest of the league has come too use. Even Cleveland uses Allen as the closer now. Also if Hurdle didn't say he was going to use his great mind decide when to use Rivero -Nicasio , I would have had no problem with Friday night as that one really did favor Rivero facing the top of the order . I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is this is not a good baseball team and there is nothing Hurdle is going to do about it. I actually hope he stops running Rivero out there for 5 out saves. Once these kind of guys are "abused" enough to lose 3-4 MPH , they are pretty useless.
Was I unclear? Isn't this whole discussion about the traditional use of the closer vs the way Hurdle said he wanted to use Rivero? Since Hurdle's comments seemed to go against the standard philosophy I call that "thinking outside the box." I cannot imagine why you take exception to that.
Not taking exception to that and no , you were not unclear.Just saying that IMO , this is not really new or innovating thinking. It's been used , thought about and tinkered with a lot. No big deal, just a little difference on how to interpret "thinking outside the box." Managers to me seem like they are intact "going back " to more of a role for the BP aces. For instance Terry Francona , country to what Dog thought , used Miller in the following ... in 2016 he had 26 appearances.. finished 7 games with 3 saves. 2017 in 30 games he has finished 2 with ZERO saves. But I do understand fully that if you get blown up in the 8th , the game is over. Just disagree a little on the best way to get to the 9th.