OnlyBucs

3433252D2334737F06212B272F2A6825292B460 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?

Careful Va, don't be dissing my Honda Civic.

745954454253440407360 wrote: Careful Va, don't be dissing my Honda Civic. 




Hatch or trunk? I miss my mazda hatchback. My new car is a sedan because I was too cheap to write the check.

Trunk. It's better for hiding the bodies. ;D

5E555D5154554E0B0D7A435B5255551459553A0 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?


I don't see any response??



For you, with this paint job, how about $25K.  Maybe half the price for a similar MB. 

4B4C5A525C4B0C00795E54585055175A5654390 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?


I don't see any response??



For you, with this paint job, how about $25K.  Maybe half the price for a similar MB. 




No thanks on the Civic. I am not really in a market for a car right now. I don't like white cars either.



Sorry, that you don't see the comparisons for the current Astros and the 2011-15 Pirates. Oh well.

I have to confess...I don't really see it either. 2013-2015 were a blast. The WC game in 2013 was the most electric atmosphere I've ever seen at a sporting event. However, I think a serious case can be made that the Pirates kind of lucked into being good in those years.



Did anyone really expect Liriano and Martin to put up the numbers they did? How about Burnett? Edinson Volquez? Wandy Rodriguez? J.A. Happ? Mark Melancon? Jason Grilli? How about Pedro Alvarez? Alvarez was an All-Star in 2013 and led the N.L. in homers. I think people could reasonably HOPE that these guys would all pull together and be competitive, but the fact is that that was all it was--hope. I feel like the Astros, on the other hand, have methodically built a team that everyone knew would be competitive. There's nothing accidental about it. A very strong lineup, and a solid rotation.



I'm trying very hard to become an Astros fan. I've been watching their games lately. Haven't turned the Pirates on for a week. I think the Pirates can be good again. But, they are at a distinct disadvantage in two of the three ways teams can acquire talent. They can't outspend anyone (or won't). So, free agents who are difference makers are out of the question. They also won't trade prospects for established ML stars. Meadows, Kingham, Glasnow, Keller...those guys aren't going anywhere. So, trading for a guy like Chris Sale is pretty much out of the question. Even if the big market teams collude to drive down trade prices, they will still always be willing to go just a bit higher than the Pirates, since they don't depend on their prospects nearly as much.



The only place we can compete is the draft, and sort of the international market. But even there, teams like the Red Sox can blow the whole thing up. Somehow I doubt the Pirates will be players for Shohei Otani (though I think they should be).



In short, the Pirates are at a distinct disadvantage versus a team like the Astros. For the Pirates to be competitive, they can't just draft "well." They have to be exceptional. They need to not only nail their first round picks. They also need to find a few all-stars in later rounds. They haven't done that to this point. They need to trade for people like Rivero who nobody else notices. I just don't see this happening on a consistent basis.



Instead, what I see happening is replacing an All-Star in A.J. Burnett with a guy like Jon Niese. To do that, I see the Pirates trade a starting second baseman, who probably should have been an All-Star by now. I see them sign a guy like Ryan Vogelsong to be the 5th starter. This year, I see them play over half the year with two outfielders on the team. I see them play the entire year with a back-up third baseman (though I actually don't fault them too much here, as given the circumstances, you probably couldn't do much better than Freese anyway). I see them shove Tyler Glasnow into the rotation when he clearly isn't ready. I see them dump a salary by trading two prospects. Yes, their star has faded somewhat this year. But that's beside the point. The point is that they continuously refuse to eat a bad contract, to take a risk, to operate as a bonafide Major League Baseball team.



I don't expect them to be the Astros, or the Dodgers, or the Cardinals, or the Red Sox, or the Mets, or the Yankees, or the Cubs, or the Angels, or the Giants, or any other big market team. But, put out an effort. I see no effort to improve from the front office, and like Bobster, I think this attitude permeates to the play on the field. Whether it's Jaso and Cole jogging to first base, or Marte letting a fly ball fall ten feet in front of him, or Polanco getting picked off of third base, I see a lackadaisical attitude that, frankly, disgusts me.



There is talent here. I'm actually optimistic that the Pirates CAN be competitive next year. But again, it's relying on a bunch of "ifs" and question marks. IF Marte finally realizes all of his talent. IF McCutchen continues hitting as he has been. IF Polanco realizes all of his talent. IF Kang comes back. IF Bell continues to develop. IF Williams, Kuhl, and Taillon continue to improve. IF Cole finally turns the corner and becomes a shut-down ace. IF Nova is the veteran anchor. IF there are no injuries. IF Elias Diaz is ready to be an everyday MLB catcher.



That's a lot of "ifs." Some will happen. Some, most certainly will not. The Pirates need all of them to happen to be competitive. It could happen. But, probably won't. Until they show more dedication to not only augmenting an already strong team, but having backup and contingency plans in place to cover when things inevitably go wrong over the course of 162, they will always play second fiddle to the Cards and Cubs, and increasingly fourth and fifth fiddle to the Reds and Brewers.

one of the things that is happening too is that the Reds and Brewers (until this year) had been losers for a few years. Both are highly motivated to get back to contending.



The Brewers took a big step forward this year. The Reds want to in the next year or two.



The Pirates? Who knows?

That's the other belief: Luck.



Cracks me up that the Pirates "got lucky" instead of actually knowing that Burnett, Martin, Liriano, Melancon, and Volquez were going to perform. Huntington brought all those guys in to win and they did. He doesn't get that credit, he was just lucky because others didn't expect the numbers they put up? Ugh.



Sorry, that you don't see how the Pirates built the team from the minors and added veterans to fill in the blanks.



The Astros did trade one big prospect in Mark Appel. I give them credit for that one as Appel has been a dud. They probably figured that out and shipped him away. If the Pirates did that, it probably would have been just luck.



Drafting Appel was a bad choice by the Pirates. But not the Astros. They drafted him #1 and gave him $6.35 million. They were knocked on the Carlos Correa pick and was told they were too cheap to pick Appel #1. The Astros certainly made the right decision. I seriously doubt the Pirates fans would have liked that move at the time. The Pirates weren't afraid to pick Appel because of his signing demands after the Astros passed on him.



Astros rise from 50 wins to competing and making the playoffs through the draft and adding veterans. Sorry, for pointing out the comparisons. Or thinking there is a comparison.

6F646C6065647F3A3C4B726A6364642568640B0 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree.  It's a very poor comparison.



If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars.  My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.



Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!



NO.  they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.



You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out.  Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"



"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!" 



If the Pirates:

1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)



2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;



3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;



4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.



But the Pirates

1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.

2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season

3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll

4) has NOT been as successful in drafts

5) spends at least $25M less in payroll

6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.



Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates. 



If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.




Cricket cricket cricket.



Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.




Read above, I explained.



How much is the Honda Civic?


I don't see any response??



For you, with this paint job, how about $25K.  Maybe half the price for a similar MB. 




No thanks on the Civic.  I am not really in a market for a car right now.  I don't like white cars either. 



Sorry, that you don't see the comparisons for the current Astros and the 2011-15 Pirates.  Oh well.




WOW. What a cop-out. I laid out documented differences that disprove your rhetoric. Then you offer this as a response?



Fact is, you didn't respond to me notwithstanding your claim otherwise. Tell you what: just cut and paste your response to me. Don't have to type another word. Just cut n paste. Or step down from the edge of the cliff you're so willing to stand on for Mr Nutting.