I also have to agree with Skinny and Freddy.
Not only is Cruz 23, he was signed when he was 15 and has already spent 7 years learning his craft. The Pirates can spin this any way they like by saying they want him to learn OF.
Why learn to play OF when you can have a power hitting shortstop with a cannon arm. That makes him more valuable than just another power hitting OF with a good arm.
Sorry, but it’s obvious this decision is just another example of trying to gain another year of control and suppress wages.
I thought the strike was supposed to eliminate this type of manipulation.
Cruz
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Cruz
57727171644F727A786F1D0 wrote: I also have to agree with Skinny and Freddy.
Not only is Cruz 23, he was signed when he was 15 and has already spent 7 years learning his craft. The Pirates can spin this any way they like by saying they want him to learn OF.
Why learn to play OF when you can have a power hitting shortstop with a cannon arm. That makes him more valuable than just another power hitting OF with a good arm.
Sorry, but it’s obvious this decision is just another example of trying to gain another year of control and suppress wages.
I thought the[highlight] strike was supposed to eliminate this type of manipulation.[/highlight]
it was a lock out and the players wanted to eliminate this type of elimination. The players lost.
Not only is Cruz 23, he was signed when he was 15 and has already spent 7 years learning his craft. The Pirates can spin this any way they like by saying they want him to learn OF.
Why learn to play OF when you can have a power hitting shortstop with a cannon arm. That makes him more valuable than just another power hitting OF with a good arm.
Sorry, but it’s obvious this decision is just another example of trying to gain another year of control and suppress wages.
I thought the[highlight] strike was supposed to eliminate this type of manipulation.[/highlight]
it was a lock out and the players wanted to eliminate this type of elimination. The players lost.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Cruz
Skinny ought to be jumping up and down for joy that Cruz is going to the minors.
After all, he won't be getting paid so much down there. ;D
This is an american problem. We have been brainwashed by media saturation thinking some suspects deserve to start the season in the majors. Maybe if everyone had to live in the world that the rest of us live in they would be more appreciative and realize that doing this kind of stuff is how BOB learned to grow those money trees he has in his back yard.
After all, he won't be getting paid so much down there. ;D
This is an american problem. We have been brainwashed by media saturation thinking some suspects deserve to start the season in the majors. Maybe if everyone had to live in the world that the rest of us live in they would be more appreciative and realize that doing this kind of stuff is how BOB learned to grow those money trees he has in his back yard.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Cruz
6F49485F49592A0 wrote: I also have to agree with Skinny and Freddy.
Not only is Cruz 23, he was signed when he was 15 and has already spent 7 years learning his craft. The Pirates can spin this any way they like by saying they want him to learn OF.
Why learn to play OF when you can have a power hitting shortstop with a cannon arm. That makes him more valuable than just another power hitting OF with a good arm.
Sorry, but it’s obvious this decision is just another example of trying to gain another year of control and suppress wages.
I thought the[highlight] strike was supposed to eliminate this type of manipulation.[/highlight]
it was a lock out and the players wanted to eliminate this type of elimination. The players lost.
You are correct it was a lock out.
Although I don’t think the players “lost”
They gained higher rookie salaries, CBT threshold went up which also increases ability to pay higher salaries without getting taxed, clubs no longer lose draft picks by signing free agents, etc, etc, etc
Not only is Cruz 23, he was signed when he was 15 and has already spent 7 years learning his craft. The Pirates can spin this any way they like by saying they want him to learn OF.
Why learn to play OF when you can have a power hitting shortstop with a cannon arm. That makes him more valuable than just another power hitting OF with a good arm.
Sorry, but it’s obvious this decision is just another example of trying to gain another year of control and suppress wages.
I thought the[highlight] strike was supposed to eliminate this type of manipulation.[/highlight]
it was a lock out and the players wanted to eliminate this type of elimination. The players lost.
You are correct it was a lock out.
Although I don’t think the players “lost”
They gained higher rookie salaries, CBT threshold went up which also increases ability to pay higher salaries without getting taxed, clubs no longer lose draft picks by signing free agents, etc, etc, etc
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Cruz
I think that he meant that the players may have lost out on this one issue.
Service time manipulation's not going away for a while. I'm not sure that anything can be done. Teams will call up players when they want.
It's in a team's best interest to field its best talent.....but, it's in a team's best financial interest to hang onto them as long as they want.
Service time manipulation's not going away for a while. I'm not sure that anything can be done. Teams will call up players when they want.
It's in a team's best interest to field its best talent.....but, it's in a team's best financial interest to hang onto them as long as they want.
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CarolinaBucco
Cruz
This is exactly what I posted last week ... that the Pirates would screw this up.
My fear is that this kind of idiotic decision (my opinion) will demoralize him or frustrate him or send him off track because he doesn't want to spend more time banging around the minor leagues ... and especially banging around LEFT FIELD or RIGHT FIELD in the minor leagues.
He's 23. He loves to play SS.
Put him at SS. Keep him at SS. Make him the starter and see how he does. Like I said, if he has a 2 for 30 slump or if he makes a few errors, it sure as heck is not going to cost us a playoff spot!
He appears to be a mega talent. This team has almost no talent. So yes of course let's send him back down to the minors and change his position ... even though we don't have any decent major league shortstops on the MLB roster. Makes perfect sense!
I just hope this doesn't sour Cruz completely and mess with his head. But I think that is a very real possibility.
My fear is that this kind of idiotic decision (my opinion) will demoralize him or frustrate him or send him off track because he doesn't want to spend more time banging around the minor leagues ... and especially banging around LEFT FIELD or RIGHT FIELD in the minor leagues.
He's 23. He loves to play SS.
Put him at SS. Keep him at SS. Make him the starter and see how he does. Like I said, if he has a 2 for 30 slump or if he makes a few errors, it sure as heck is not going to cost us a playoff spot!
He appears to be a mega talent. This team has almost no talent. So yes of course let's send him back down to the minors and change his position ... even though we don't have any decent major league shortstops on the MLB roster. Makes perfect sense!
I just hope this doesn't sour Cruz completely and mess with his head. But I think that is a very real possibility.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Cruz
He's a major league professional athlete who's well aware of the drill.
Every high-level minor leaguers knows that clubs don't bring them up on Opening Day all the time, and they know the reason.
If this causes Cruz to pout, then he's too soft to be in the majors.
He'll forget all about it when he hits the big time.
The percentage of rookies on opening day compared to those who play during is minimal.
Finally, it's The Ben Cherington. The guy knows what he's doing, based on the accolades that he receives. The sooner Cruz gets called up, the sooner he gets dumped.
Every high-level minor leaguers knows that clubs don't bring them up on Opening Day all the time, and they know the reason.
If this causes Cruz to pout, then he's too soft to be in the majors.
He'll forget all about it when he hits the big time.
The percentage of rookies on opening day compared to those who play during is minimal.
Finally, it's The Ben Cherington. The guy knows what he's doing, based on the accolades that he receives. The sooner Cruz gets called up, the sooner he gets dumped.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Cruz
4B535156564150574A4B5D380 wrote: The one thing that gives me faith that the Pirates won’t screw this up is that Huntington is no longer in charge. I trust Cherington’s judgment in all personnel matters far more than I did NH.
I’m all for bringing him up, if it’s what’s best for him. Costing the Pirates games in 2022 due to his inexperience should have no bearing on the decision to having him play in Pittsburgh. But if a couple of hundred at bats in Indy will make him a better major leaguer, than he should play there until he’s ready. I agree with this and this should apply to other guys in the Minors as well this year that are just about Major League ready. Get them up here now and [highlight]quit worrying about wins and losses in 2022.[/highlight] This isn’t a team that’s going to contend why treat it as such. I trust Cherrington to do stuff a lot better then Huntington in regards to young players being called up and fast tracked to the Majors. So what if you haven’t done it before and it’s not their philosophy. Well it should be their philosophy period. When you haven’t won a pennant and playoffs series in 43 years and a division title in 30 years it’s time to do things differently and use a new approach. I really hope the Pirates do this with this great talent they now in their Minor League system which is absolutely loaded. The Pirates really have an excellent shot to be a winning team as soon as maybe even next year in 2023 and definitely in 2024 and 2025. They can’t and shouldn’t screw this up this time.
Wins and losses this season, and maybe even next, shouldn't determine roster spots. It exclusively should be about preparing this initial wave of younger players to perform to their highest level when they're ready to play in the major leagues. If that means some of them go to Altoona some to Indy or some to Pittsburgh, I'm fine with it. And then it should apply to each wave of players after that. Tampa and Oakland have success doing it that way, and have for quite some time, so it's possible.
Pretty sure Cruz doesn't care if your ok with it. Good grief the guy is 23 years old not 18 he has paid his dues and deserves to be in the majors. I'm with Freddy they are going to screw this up if they keep trying to extend their control over this guy.
This may set a new bar for most inane posts. According to your logic, simply because he’s 23 years old, Cruz has paid his dues and deserves to be in the major leagues.
Having him spend four to six weeks in Indy can only have a positive impact on his and the team’s future, which doesn’t include this season when the Pirates will have a hard time not losing 100 games. You’re willing to perhaps hurt his development for six meaningless weeks in what’s going to be another train wreck of a season. ::)
As usual Doc you think to highly of yourself and your opinion everyone has one and yours for damn sure isn't worth much.
Another little nugget of wisdom.
I’m all for bringing him up, if it’s what’s best for him. Costing the Pirates games in 2022 due to his inexperience should have no bearing on the decision to having him play in Pittsburgh. But if a couple of hundred at bats in Indy will make him a better major leaguer, than he should play there until he’s ready. I agree with this and this should apply to other guys in the Minors as well this year that are just about Major League ready. Get them up here now and [highlight]quit worrying about wins and losses in 2022.[/highlight] This isn’t a team that’s going to contend why treat it as such. I trust Cherrington to do stuff a lot better then Huntington in regards to young players being called up and fast tracked to the Majors. So what if you haven’t done it before and it’s not their philosophy. Well it should be their philosophy period. When you haven’t won a pennant and playoffs series in 43 years and a division title in 30 years it’s time to do things differently and use a new approach. I really hope the Pirates do this with this great talent they now in their Minor League system which is absolutely loaded. The Pirates really have an excellent shot to be a winning team as soon as maybe even next year in 2023 and definitely in 2024 and 2025. They can’t and shouldn’t screw this up this time.
Wins and losses this season, and maybe even next, shouldn't determine roster spots. It exclusively should be about preparing this initial wave of younger players to perform to their highest level when they're ready to play in the major leagues. If that means some of them go to Altoona some to Indy or some to Pittsburgh, I'm fine with it. And then it should apply to each wave of players after that. Tampa and Oakland have success doing it that way, and have for quite some time, so it's possible.
Pretty sure Cruz doesn't care if your ok with it. Good grief the guy is 23 years old not 18 he has paid his dues and deserves to be in the majors. I'm with Freddy they are going to screw this up if they keep trying to extend their control over this guy.
This may set a new bar for most inane posts. According to your logic, simply because he’s 23 years old, Cruz has paid his dues and deserves to be in the major leagues.
Having him spend four to six weeks in Indy can only have a positive impact on his and the team’s future, which doesn’t include this season when the Pirates will have a hard time not losing 100 games. You’re willing to perhaps hurt his development for six meaningless weeks in what’s going to be another train wreck of a season. ::)
As usual Doc you think to highly of yourself and your opinion everyone has one and yours for damn sure isn't worth much.
Another little nugget of wisdom.
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Bobster21
Cruz
While it was reported that the CBA agreement addressed service time manipulation, it was only done to an extremely small extent. Rookies who finish 1st or 2nd in their league's ROY voting will be credited with a full year of service even if they had been kept in the minors long enough to normally not count as a year of service. Otherwise, nothing is changed in that regard.
An MLB service year is defined as spending 172 out of 187 days of the regular season on any combination of the 26-man roster or the IL. So a player can be recalled from the minors after the first 15 days of the season and not be credited with a year of service for FA and arb purposes. The big "however" is Super 2 status. The top 22% of all rookies in time spent in the majors for any given season gain super 2 status and become eligible for arb a year early. (It does not effect their eligibility for free agency.) Teams don't worry so much about granting super 2 status to marginal rookie relievers or utility players because an extra year of arb probably won't mean much. They may not even be on the team anymore by then. But granting an extra year of arb to rookies with star potential is something teams try to avoid.
Bryan Reynolds was recalled early in his rookie year of 2019 and that was only because of injuries to Dickerson and Marte. And only after Jason Martin had been the 1st player recalled. Reynolds did so well he spent the rest of the season on the roster, which put him in the top 22% of 2019 rookies for time in MLB. So he was eligible for arb after 3 years rather than the normal 4. Doesn't effect his eligibility for free agency. The CBA did not change that.
This seems to be the reasoning behind starting the season with Cruz in the minors. If he spends at least the first 16 days of the season in the minors, it delays his eligibility for free agency by 1 year. If he stays in the minors long enough to not be in the top 22% of 2022 rookies in time spent in the majors, it prevents him from being eligible for arb after only 3 years instead of 4. UNLESS....he gets recalled and finishes 1st or 2nd in ROY voting and therefore is credited with 1 full year of service for both FA and arb purposes regardless of how long they kept him in the minors before recalling him.
An MLB service year is defined as spending 172 out of 187 days of the regular season on any combination of the 26-man roster or the IL. So a player can be recalled from the minors after the first 15 days of the season and not be credited with a year of service for FA and arb purposes. The big "however" is Super 2 status. The top 22% of all rookies in time spent in the majors for any given season gain super 2 status and become eligible for arb a year early. (It does not effect their eligibility for free agency.) Teams don't worry so much about granting super 2 status to marginal rookie relievers or utility players because an extra year of arb probably won't mean much. They may not even be on the team anymore by then. But granting an extra year of arb to rookies with star potential is something teams try to avoid.
Bryan Reynolds was recalled early in his rookie year of 2019 and that was only because of injuries to Dickerson and Marte. And only after Jason Martin had been the 1st player recalled. Reynolds did so well he spent the rest of the season on the roster, which put him in the top 22% of 2019 rookies for time in MLB. So he was eligible for arb after 3 years rather than the normal 4. Doesn't effect his eligibility for free agency. The CBA did not change that.
This seems to be the reasoning behind starting the season with Cruz in the minors. If he spends at least the first 16 days of the season in the minors, it delays his eligibility for free agency by 1 year. If he stays in the minors long enough to not be in the top 22% of 2022 rookies in time spent in the majors, it prevents him from being eligible for arb after only 3 years instead of 4. UNLESS....he gets recalled and finishes 1st or 2nd in ROY voting and therefore is credited with 1 full year of service for both FA and arb purposes regardless of how long they kept him in the minors before recalling him.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Cruz
The world is coming to an end on THIS thread, too . BOB, post the clip.!
I'm with fjk on this. The guy has a this resume in high minors ball. I would have made the same decision, TBH.
Ben makes good ones once in a while.
I'm with fjk on this. The guy has a this resume in high minors ball. I would have made the same decision, TBH.
Ben makes good ones once in a while.