Huntington radio show yesterday...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Huntington radio show yesterday...
I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Huntington radio show yesterday...
456865747362753536070 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
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Bobster21
Huntington radio show yesterday...
012437223E353E3F3A32560 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
Huntington radio show yesterday...
406576637F747F7E7B73170 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
I agree that the Pirates' off season plan wasn't unreasonable if it was intended as a holding pattern, but it wasn't a plan whose goal was to take the step(s) needed to improve. Losing Burnett and Happ from your starting rotation and replacing them with Niese and Vogelsong (after salary dumping Charlie Morton) could not be viewed as improving the rotation from 2015 even by the most cockeyed of optimists. I believe Neal Huntington is a savvy enough GM to understand that. He's making moves as much to stay within his mandated spending budget as to improve the team. I think he was aware that this team could take a step back this year but did as much as he could within his financial constraints to keep it winning.
I have no gripe with the FO. What I question is whether the Pirates revenue stream is such that ownership has to keep payroll in the bottom third of MLB in perpetuity. I say that without sarcasm as I have no idea what's involved in their comprehensive financial situation.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
I agree that the Pirates' off season plan wasn't unreasonable if it was intended as a holding pattern, but it wasn't a plan whose goal was to take the step(s) needed to improve. Losing Burnett and Happ from your starting rotation and replacing them with Niese and Vogelsong (after salary dumping Charlie Morton) could not be viewed as improving the rotation from 2015 even by the most cockeyed of optimists. I believe Neal Huntington is a savvy enough GM to understand that. He's making moves as much to stay within his mandated spending budget as to improve the team. I think he was aware that this team could take a step back this year but did as much as he could within his financial constraints to keep it winning.
I have no gripe with the FO. What I question is whether the Pirates revenue stream is such that ownership has to keep payroll in the bottom third of MLB in perpetuity. I say that without sarcasm as I have no idea what's involved in their comprehensive financial situation.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Huntington radio show yesterday...
6D404D5C5B4A5D1D1E2F0 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
Huntington radio show yesterday...
705546534F444F4E4B43270 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Well, I doubt the Bucs expected S-Rod and Joyce to perform anywhere close to what they have this season. Also, Polanco's improvement comes close to cancelling out Cutch's decline. So the gap IMO is the gamble on the pitching staff.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Well, I doubt the Bucs expected S-Rod and Joyce to perform anywhere close to what they have this season. Also, Polanco's improvement comes close to cancelling out Cutch's decline. So the gap IMO is the gamble on the pitching staff.
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Bobster21
Huntington radio show yesterday...
597C6F7A666D6667626A0E0 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
My point is that when you say, "I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series" those 98 wins were achieved with Burnett and Happ pitching as they did, regardless of how Happ pitched previously in his career. Happ replaced Burnett after Burnett's injury and the two combined for a 16-9 record and an ERA of 2.81. That not far from what Cole gave them (19-8, 2.60). Niese had never come remotely close to that kind of production in his career. If the idea was for him to pitch as good as Happ had pitched before becoming a Pirate, then they were expecting a weakened staff because they didn't win 98 games with the Happ who had been mediocre or worse for most of his career.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
My point is that when you say, "I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series" those 98 wins were achieved with Burnett and Happ pitching as they did, regardless of how Happ pitched previously in his career. Happ replaced Burnett after Burnett's injury and the two combined for a 16-9 record and an ERA of 2.81. That not far from what Cole gave them (19-8, 2.60). Niese had never come remotely close to that kind of production in his career. If the idea was for him to pitch as good as Happ had pitched before becoming a Pirate, then they were expecting a weakened staff because they didn't win 98 games with the Happ who had been mediocre or worse for most of his career.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Huntington radio show yesterday...
6C485C54513D0 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
I agree that the Pirates' off season plan wasn't unreasonable if it was intended as a holding pattern, but it wasn't a plan whose goal was to take the step(s) needed to improve. Losing Burnett and Happ from your starting rotation and replacing them with Niese and Vogelsong (after salary dumping Charlie Morton) could not be viewed as improving the rotation from 2015 even by the most cockeyed of optimists. I believe Neal Huntington is a savvy enough GM to understand that. He's making moves as much to stay within his mandated spending budget as to improve the team. I think he was aware that this team could take a step back this year but did as much as he could within his financial constraints to keep it winning.
I have no gripe with the FO. What I question is whether the Pirates revenue stream is such that ownership has to keep payroll in the bottom third of MLB in perpetuity. I say that without sarcasm as I have no idea what's involved in their comprehensive financial situation.
I certainly wasn't happy with the off season and had the opportunity to tell Neal myself, in a very polite way.
I'll just say I'm 100% certain that they were not throwing the towel in on this season but this is indeed a transition year. Due to budget, the Pirates were simply not going to give serious consideration to any pitcher that required multi-years (Niese was that guy because of the team flexibility). Neal was trying to thread a needle. Crazy, but as others have pointed out, if some of the vets were playing/pitching as expected the Pirates would be in great shape.
I pretty much accepted this reality as the season began, with some disappointment, until the Cervelli opportunity. The initial cold reaction made me wonder if they would truly invest for potentially huge years in 2017 and 18.
With Cervelli now in place, the talent on display by many rookies, and the team returning next year, I truly think we can compete for a pennant and WS next year. But they'll need to finish even that team - I'd like to see the Pirates extend the Shark by two years (especially now that the Cubs have Chapman). At this time I can't guess as to whether we need one more starter. But I feel certain that most teams would be looking for one more ( since Niese has not panned out). Finally, I would try to resign this bench. I don't know what it would cost to accomplish all three of these steps, but I do think they are reasonable requests for a team close to being the best in baseball.
I also think the Pirates beat the Dodgers in the Wildcard this year.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
I agree that the Pirates' off season plan wasn't unreasonable if it was intended as a holding pattern, but it wasn't a plan whose goal was to take the step(s) needed to improve. Losing Burnett and Happ from your starting rotation and replacing them with Niese and Vogelsong (after salary dumping Charlie Morton) could not be viewed as improving the rotation from 2015 even by the most cockeyed of optimists. I believe Neal Huntington is a savvy enough GM to understand that. He's making moves as much to stay within his mandated spending budget as to improve the team. I think he was aware that this team could take a step back this year but did as much as he could within his financial constraints to keep it winning.
I have no gripe with the FO. What I question is whether the Pirates revenue stream is such that ownership has to keep payroll in the bottom third of MLB in perpetuity. I say that without sarcasm as I have no idea what's involved in their comprehensive financial situation.
I certainly wasn't happy with the off season and had the opportunity to tell Neal myself, in a very polite way.
I'll just say I'm 100% certain that they were not throwing the towel in on this season but this is indeed a transition year. Due to budget, the Pirates were simply not going to give serious consideration to any pitcher that required multi-years (Niese was that guy because of the team flexibility). Neal was trying to thread a needle. Crazy, but as others have pointed out, if some of the vets were playing/pitching as expected the Pirates would be in great shape.
I pretty much accepted this reality as the season began, with some disappointment, until the Cervelli opportunity. The initial cold reaction made me wonder if they would truly invest for potentially huge years in 2017 and 18.
With Cervelli now in place, the talent on display by many rookies, and the team returning next year, I truly think we can compete for a pennant and WS next year. But they'll need to finish even that team - I'd like to see the Pirates extend the Shark by two years (especially now that the Cubs have Chapman). At this time I can't guess as to whether we need one more starter. But I feel certain that most teams would be looking for one more ( since Niese has not panned out). Finally, I would try to resign this bench. I don't know what it would cost to accomplish all three of these steps, but I do think they are reasonable requests for a team close to being the best in baseball.
I also think the Pirates beat the Dodgers in the Wildcard this year.
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Wrathchild
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Huntington radio show yesterday...
6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: I think the FO wants to win. But only within the financial constraints they operate within, whether that's by choice or necessity. I think they are realizing it's more difficult to build a championship roster than to transform a noncontender into a contender. They did a great job of building up the organization. But we saw this off season when a 98 win team needed only to improve it's starting pitching to have a legit chance to take that next step (going deep into the postseason) that they would weaken the pitching rather than pay for an upgrade. So they certainly want to win. But only if it can be done without a significant increase in payroll.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
My point is that when you say, "I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series" those 98 wins were achieved with Burnett and Happ pitching as they did, regardless of how Happ pitched previously in his career. Happ replaced Burnett after Burnett's injury and the two combined for a 16-9 record and an ERA of 2.81. That not far from what Cole gave them (19-8, 2.60). Niese had never come remotely close to that kind of production in his career. If the idea was for him to pitch as good as Happ had pitched before becoming a Pirate, then they were expecting a weakened staff because they didn't win 98 games with the Happ who had been mediocre or worse for most of his career.
And my point is that, if a guy that has been crappy for five years suddenly comes over and does very good things, why not believe that a guy who has actually been better over the same time frame can also come over and do very good things? But, of course, he didn't, so now people think it was irresponsible. I don't think that's a fair way of assessing decisions that are made before we actually know the results.
I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series. I know I'm in the minority but the offseason plan isn't the problem. They had Cole and Liriano. They'd won with Locke in the rotation before. They decided Niese was likely as good as Happ and cheaper. That hasn't worked out but it wasn't an unreasonable analysis. They needed room for Taillon so they signed a couple guys in Nicasio and Vogelsong to start until Taillon was ready to come to Pittsburgh. Taillon has been fine. If the Pirates don't make the playoffs, it won't be because Huntington messed up. It will be because of the unexpected poor performance of McCutchen and Liriano. Those guys were supposed to deliver 9 WAR. Instead, they have combined for below replacement numbers. That couldn't be reasonably predicted or accounted for. We are basically 2/3 into the season. If they were playing as expected, they'd be worth about six wins so far and we'd be on pace for 95 wins.
Those 98 wins last year don't just repeat themselves. Burnett was very good for that team and when he got hurt, Happ became their best pitcher fore the period he was there. Locke was always a problem and was barely adequate as #5. And everyone knew the Cubs would be the team to beat in 2016. If a GM thinks he doesn't have to make improvements after losing Burnett/Happ because he won 98 games with them, that's irresponsible. Niese had a history as an adequate pitcher but was never the equal of Burnett and had never come close to the production Happ had for the Bucs. Instead of upgrading over Locke, they moved him from a problematic #5 to an even more problematic #4. Taillon was coming off a 2-year layoff with little AAA experience. A plan to keep Locke and stabilize the rotation with Niese, Vogelsong or Nicasio while expecting a rookie to make a big difference in the 2nd half was flawed from the start.
Of course it doesn't help that Cutch, Liriano and even Cole have under performed. But having started the season with weaker pitching than in 2015, there was no margin for error if the reliable players slumped.
When the Pirates dealt for Happ last year, he hadn't been any good since 2010. Niese's previous years over the same period were better than Happ's. Happ had a great run with the Pirates for 63 innings but there wasn't much of an objective basis to believe he was superior to Niese. He had become more expensive, though. Taillon, despite your misgivings, has come up and performed.
My point is that when you say, "I'm not sure how often the management of a 98 win team feels it has to make upgrades to have a chance to win a world series" those 98 wins were achieved with Burnett and Happ pitching as they did, regardless of how Happ pitched previously in his career. Happ replaced Burnett after Burnett's injury and the two combined for a 16-9 record and an ERA of 2.81. That not far from what Cole gave them (19-8, 2.60). Niese had never come remotely close to that kind of production in his career. If the idea was for him to pitch as good as Happ had pitched before becoming a Pirate, then they were expecting a weakened staff because they didn't win 98 games with the Happ who had been mediocre or worse for most of his career.
And my point is that, if a guy that has been crappy for five years suddenly comes over and does very good things, why not believe that a guy who has actually been better over the same time frame can also come over and do very good things? But, of course, he didn't, so now people think it was irresponsible. I don't think that's a fair way of assessing decisions that are made before we actually know the results.
Huntington radio show yesterday...
I don't disagree with most of what has been written above, but I think the next logical step in the conversation is one that never gets answered. If the FO didn't do enough to help the rotation in the offseason (and we all think they did not), what WERE they supposed to do? Who were they supposed to get? See that's the problem. Burnett and Happ posted such good numbers last year, the Pirates were never going to find a replacement for that spot in the rotation. Never mind Liriano pitching poorly, and the Niese/Locke debacle, there was never a realistic option out there to replicate Burnett/Happ. There were no FA's they could realistically target and it would have taken a trade of someone like Marte for Carrasco (Cle) to make a move toward that end.