Here's a comparison between the Astros and Pirates GMs:
In Jeff Luhnow's 4th season the Astros made the playoffs, reaching the ALDS.
In Neal Huntington's 4th season the Pirates lost 90 games and did not reach the playoffs until his 6th season.
In Jeff Luhnow's 3rd season the Astros had the 3rd ranked minor league system.
In Neal Huntington's 3rd season the Pirates had the 15th ranked minor league system.
In Jeff Luhnow's 6th season he has developed such hitters as Carlos Correa, George Springer and Alex Bregman
In Neal Huntington's 6th season he had developed such hitters as Pedro Alvarez and in his 10th season he has developed Gregory Polanco, Josh Bell and Adam Frazier.
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
7969685F4949452A0 wrote:
Very few comparisons champ. Let's be reasonable. One has a huge lead to WIN the division while the other was just hoping to hang on to a wild card. It would have been nice if Houston added a reliever, but its not imperative. Again, I'm sure they tried, but GMs like NH didn't see a fit, which is a joke, especially on an expiring contract for a piece with an expiring contract that could have brought a decent prospect
Let's not make this a comparison on history. Let's make this a comparison on rosters now and where they stand. There is zero comparison between the two. That is all that matters.
Only a few? The Astros are leading their division this year. Yes, they are probably the best team in the league. The Pirates were in a tough division and would have won their division too in their three year playoff run.
When Huntington tries to add a player and fails, he sucks. But you are ok with Houston failing to add players? Seems fair to me, Champ!
I am comparing the last two years and this year Astros to the Pirates of 2013-2015. But don't tell me how great the Astros are when they haven't won a thing and how jealous you are of them if the same doesn't go of the Pirates. The Pirates had just a good of a run from a longer history of losing. No praise for them, but lets praise the Astros for having the same success? See how that doesn't make sense, Champ?
Very few comparisons champ. Let's be reasonable. One has a huge lead to WIN the division while the other was just hoping to hang on to a wild card. It would have been nice if Houston added a reliever, but its not imperative. Again, I'm sure they tried, but GMs like NH didn't see a fit, which is a joke, especially on an expiring contract for a piece with an expiring contract that could have brought a decent prospect
Let's not make this a comparison on history. Let's make this a comparison on rosters now and where they stand. There is zero comparison between the two. That is all that matters.
Only a few? The Astros are leading their division this year. Yes, they are probably the best team in the league. The Pirates were in a tough division and would have won their division too in their three year playoff run.
When Huntington tries to add a player and fails, he sucks. But you are ok with Houston failing to add players? Seems fair to me, Champ!
I am comparing the last two years and this year Astros to the Pirates of 2013-2015. But don't tell me how great the Astros are when they haven't won a thing and how jealous you are of them if the same doesn't go of the Pirates. The Pirates had just a good of a run from a longer history of losing. No praise for them, but lets praise the Astros for having the same success? See how that doesn't make sense, Champ?
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
The Astros? Won a Pennant in 2005, division 97', 98', 99', 01', will win this year.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
29202839374D0 wrote: The Astros? Won a Pennant in 2005, division 97', 98', 99', 01', will win this year.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
38333B373233286D6B1C253D343333723F335C0 wrote: The Astros? Won a Pennant in 2005, division 97', 98', 99', 01', will win this year.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
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rucker59@gmail.com
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree. It's a very poor comparison.
If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars. My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.
Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!
NO. they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.
You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out. Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"
"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!"
If the Pirates:
1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)
2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;
3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;
4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.
But the Pirates
1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.
2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season
3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll
4) has NOT been as successful in drafts
5) spends at least $25M less in payroll
6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.
Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates.
If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.
If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars. My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.
Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!
NO. they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.
You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out. Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"
"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!"
If the Pirates:
1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)
2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;
3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;
4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.
But the Pirates
1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.
2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season
3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll
4) has NOT been as successful in drafts
5) spends at least $25M less in payroll
6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.
Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates.
If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.
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Bobster21
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
By the time of the trade deadline, the inactivity of the BMTIB in the offseason and since the beginning of the season when they lost Kang and Marte and decided not to replace them and to get by with 2 OFers had already doomed the team. Everyone knew Watson would be dealt for prospects and there was no point in trading prospects to rent another player or 2 to finish out a lost season. So while I'm disappointed with the overall lack of effort from the FO all season, I saw little reason to make any other moves at the DL. I don't understand criticism of the Astros who are clearly the best team in the AL and 2nd in record only to the Dodgers. They could use another starting pitcher if it was a significant upgrade but as good as they are, I can understand not wanting to give up too much for an acquisition that may not be necessary.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
2C252D3C32480 wrote: The Astros? Won a Pennant in 2005, division 97', 98', 99', 01', will win this year.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
You brought up the history of the franchises. I was comparing the most recent runs. What the Astros are doing now and what the Pirates just did a few years ago.
Why are people praising the Astros and what they are doing now and not giving the Pirates credit in what they just accomplished? That is my point.
It's just anti-ownership no matter what they do. Praise the Astros, but don't mock the Pirates latest playoff run in the process. It is not endless defense, it is being fair.
I do think the Astros should have added more pitching, but I agree with them not giving up the farm considering their situation. But when the Pirates did this, they were cheap, didn't want to win, and didn't care. They just wanted to make money. The Astros do it and it is "way to go Astros".
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
You brought up the history of the franchises. I was comparing the most recent runs. What the Astros are doing now and what the Pirates just did a few years ago.
Why are people praising the Astros and what they are doing now and not giving the Pirates credit in what they just accomplished? That is my point.
It's just anti-ownership no matter what they do. Praise the Astros, but don't mock the Pirates latest playoff run in the process. It is not endless defense, it is being fair.
I do think the Astros should have added more pitching, but I agree with them not giving up the farm considering their situation. But when the Pirates did this, they were cheap, didn't want to win, and didn't care. They just wanted to make money. The Astros do it and it is "way to go Astros".
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Bobster21
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
7279717D7879622721566F777E7979387579160 wrote: The Astros? Won a Pennant in 2005, division 97', 98', 99', 01', will win this year.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
You brought up the history of the franchises. I was comparing the most recent runs. What the Astros are doing now and what the Pirates just did a few years ago.
Why are people praising the Astros and what they are doing now and not giving the Pirates credit in what they just accomplished? That is my point.
It's just anti-ownership no matter what they do. Praise the Astros, but don't mock the Pirates latest playoff run in the process. It is not endless defense, it is being fair.
I do think the Astros should have added more pitching, but I agree with them not giving up the farm considering their situation. But when the Pirates did this, they were cheap, didn't want to win, and didn't care. They just wanted to make money. The Astros do it and it is "way to go Astros".
The Pirates were being praised during their playoff run. Fans were super excited about being in the post season. They were criticized because instead of building on the 98 win team, they went in the opposite direction. Burnett retired, Happ left and rather than improve on the 40% of the rotation that was Locke and Morton, they went with Niese, Locke and Nicasio/Vogelsong while lowering payroll and just getting by with Jaso at 1B. So the praise of the playoff run turned into criticism over how the FO let the team go from good to bad.
The Astros are currently at the peak of their resurgence which started 2 years ago and are rightfully being praised. But if they follow up this run of success by lowering the talent level, saving money and letting the team fail, you can bet they will hear plenty of criticism.
It's really too early to compare the 2 organizations over their similar brief periods of success. The Pirates had a nice rise from the ashes and then crashed and burned without winning anything except 1 WC game while losing 2 other WC games and losing a division series. Lets see how far the Astros go and how long they sustain success before we compare the 2 situations.
Wild card 04', 05', 15'
Yup. We're a better org than them! Steve Blass will never let you forget 71' and teke 79'.
Only 2015 was under their current ownership.
Since 1962, the Pirates have won more divisions, more playoff appearances, and more World Series.
So, Yes, the Pirates are a better organization in history too.
You, teke and Steve Blass seem to be the only ones living in the 60s and 70s. At least they were alive then.
Why do you care about years before you existed again? Other than the rain delay reruns and Blass's grandfatherly repetitive stories?
Also Jim Crane bought the 'Stros in 2011, so what are you even saying? Nutting is a better owner than Jim Crane? Is that what you're trying to say? I have no opinion on who the better owner is.
Here's yet another example of your endless defense and apologizing for Bob Nutting, who wasn't even mentioned. Have you ever met him or worked for him? It's creepy
You brought up the history of the franchises. I was comparing the most recent runs. What the Astros are doing now and what the Pirates just did a few years ago.
Why are people praising the Astros and what they are doing now and not giving the Pirates credit in what they just accomplished? That is my point.
It's just anti-ownership no matter what they do. Praise the Astros, but don't mock the Pirates latest playoff run in the process. It is not endless defense, it is being fair.
I do think the Astros should have added more pitching, but I agree with them not giving up the farm considering their situation. But when the Pirates did this, they were cheap, didn't want to win, and didn't care. They just wanted to make money. The Astros do it and it is "way to go Astros".
The Pirates were being praised during their playoff run. Fans were super excited about being in the post season. They were criticized because instead of building on the 98 win team, they went in the opposite direction. Burnett retired, Happ left and rather than improve on the 40% of the rotation that was Locke and Morton, they went with Niese, Locke and Nicasio/Vogelsong while lowering payroll and just getting by with Jaso at 1B. So the praise of the playoff run turned into criticism over how the FO let the team go from good to bad.
The Astros are currently at the peak of their resurgence which started 2 years ago and are rightfully being praised. But if they follow up this run of success by lowering the talent level, saving money and letting the team fail, you can bet they will hear plenty of criticism.
It's really too early to compare the 2 organizations over their similar brief periods of success. The Pirates had a nice rise from the ashes and then crashed and burned without winning anything except 1 WC game while losing 2 other WC games and losing a division series. Lets see how far the Astros go and how long they sustain success before we compare the 2 situations.
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rucker59@gmail.com
No Deal Neal and Bottom Line Bob
4542545C5245020E77505A565E5B1954585A370 wrote: I've been trying to figure out the comparison to the Astro's and you're simply barking up the wrong tree. It's a very poor comparison.
If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars. My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.
Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!
NO. they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.
You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out. Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"
"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!"
If the Pirates:
1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)
2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;
3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;
4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.
But the Pirates
1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.
2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season
3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll
4) has NOT been as successful in drafts
5) spends at least $25M less in payroll
6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.
Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates.
If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.
Cricket cricket cricket.
Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.
If I drive a white Honda Civic and pass a white Mercedes, I'm not exactly in the same league as the guy in the Mercedes just because we both drive white cars. My arguement: we can't compare these two cars just because you might indeed find some common attributes.
Your argument: they're completely comparable, same color, Heck, you've got four wheels just like the MB!
NO. they might have things in common but they're NOT comparable.
You seem to be saying: "look, the Astro's didn't make any big moves at TDL, fans are unhappy, star player speaks out. Why do you say the Pirates failed when the Astro's failed just as badly?"
"Because", I try to explain, "there is nothing in common with the two organizations Under current ownership!"
If the Pirates:
1) signed three pretty significant players in the offseason trying to strengthen weaknesses (like the Astro's), added several other ML pieces including an interesting reclamation project pitcher (like the Astros)
2) if the Pirates were spending an extra $25M on payroll (like the Astros) EVEN THOUGH they could be well under the Pirates because of their relative youth;
3) if the Pirates received as much production from their years of high draft picks as the Astros;
4) if the Pirates did all these things like the Astros, then I'd say we can make some sort of comparison and I'd also have less to complain about.
But the Pirates
1) didn't even attempt to address weaknesses on this team in either the off season or TDL.
2) didn't add ML ready talent in the off season
3) DID use a young team to justify a very low level of payroll
4) has NOT been as successful in drafts
5) spends at least $25M less in payroll
6) and one last thing - the Pirates under Nutting have never led a division by 14 games at the TDL.
Just because the Astros moves at the deadline can be somewhat compared to the Pirates, there is simply no comparison between the Astros and the Pirates.
If you think otherwise, then I've got a Civic with a white paint job that I'll sale you for much less then that white MB will cost you.
Cricket cricket cricket.
Still hoping to sale a Civic at half the price of a white MB.